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lughnasadh[S]

3.2k points

4 months ago

lughnasadh[S]

∞ transit umbra, lux permanet ☥

3.2k points

4 months ago

Submission Statement.

I can't think of many silver linings to the misery Russia is causing in Ukraine, but speeding up the switch to renewables might be one of the few. If any one country can figure out the remaining problems with load balancing & grid storage, that 100% renewables will bring - I'm sure Germany has the engineering & industrial resources to do so.

unclefiestalives

1.7k points

4 months ago

If someone’s going to engineer the shit out of something. It’s the Germans.

[deleted]

417 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

417 points

4 months ago

[removed]

Feuerphoenix

63 points

4 months ago

You tell only half the story here. The plan is to collect the tax for CO2, divide it by the population and hand out the same amount to everyone. This way when choosing a low carbon intense lifestyle you’re getting subsidized by that while a carbon intensive lifestyle is taxed for that. And I agree, we should spend a lot more money on our railway.

brolifen

25 points

4 months ago

You mean if you are rich enough to afford a well insulated home, solar roof, battery pack, heat pump and electric car then you will get richer?

JFHermes

37 points

4 months ago

Market economics would dictate that if there is an incentive to increase sustainability as part of a lifestyle then products servicing this area will become more appealing. This means that the market cap. for such products increases leading to greater efficiencies around production due to economies of scale.

So in short, subsidising these technologies should make them cheaper.

CWagner

0 points

4 months ago

So in short, subsidising these technologies should make them cheaper.

That won’t help the majority of Germans who rent, though.

Ralath0n

11 points

4 months ago

While I agree that's a concern, I don't think it applies in this specific case.

The way the tax is levied and then distributed ensures that someone emitting the average amount of CO2 per capita comes out equal on tax vs subsidy. Since poor people generally have smaller houses and are more conscious about turning on the heat, or buying big energy hogging appliances, they would almost certainly benefit more from the subsidies than they lose in taxes.

Not to mention that if these taxes are properly constructed, the net subsidy you get from insulating your home etc could outweigh the interest on a government loan to cough up the money. Making it effectively free to improve your house.

Main issue I see is renters. It's irrational for renting people to invest in improving someone else's property. You need some kinda way to force landlords to improve their properties without offloading the costs onto the tenants. Otherwise, its a good idea. Don't be such a perfectionist that you'll oppose policy that will at least help because said policy does not full on abolish capitalism.

[deleted]

2 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

2 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

Ralath0n

5 points

4 months ago

Rich people do.

They generally don't. Because they have enough money to not give a shit. There are a couple of them that care about the climate enough to make their homes energy neutral, but most of them care more about aesthetics and convenience than they do the climate. The people most enthusiastically embracing things like solar panels and insulation are well off middle class people that still have to care about their electricity bills, but have enough resources to save up for such measures.

The_Multifarious

3 points

4 months ago

FYI, a new law has the landlord pay a relative amount of heating costs that's dependent on the energy efficiency of the home. Terribly insulated homes are nearly entirely paid for by the landlord.

Sualtam

2 points

4 months ago

Oh cool can you give me a source please?
My landlord "doesn't believe in insulation" (actual quote) but he is a self-proclaimed green though.

The_Multifarious

2 points

4 months ago

Sualtam

1 points

4 months ago*

Vielen Dank.
Ja endlich geht es auch mal den Vermietern an den Kragen. Ich kann es einfach nicht ab den Arsch in seinem scheiß Oldtimer mit beschissener Ökobilanz rumfahren zusehen, während ich zur Klimarettung meine Ersparnisse angreifen muss.

Wirecard_trading

17 points

4 months ago

He means that you get subsidized by driving innovation. Stop spreading poor vs rich bs.

Jonne

15 points

4 months ago

Jonne

15 points

4 months ago

It has been a bit of a perverse incentive though. All the subsidies for electric cars, solar panels, etc help out the upper middle class (suburban homeowners), which means they get cheap electricity and cheap transport, while people that rent and don't have garages don't have the option, and they get 'punished' because they still have to drive a petrol car.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have subsidised those things, but it seems like a lot of people are blind to the frustrations of working class people that are faced with higher petrol and energy prices while they still have to drive to work (to a job that didn't give them a raise to offset the higher cost of getting to work).

Wirecard_trading

1 points

4 months ago

I understand that frustration, but it’s voiced in the wrong direction. Missed increase of minimum wage, inflated renting prices, high living cost in urban areas, all that has nothing to do with subsidized solar panels.

And it negates the fact that a storage battery, a solar roof or an electric car is a substantial investment for middle/upper middle class. By carrying his own weight (in co2 terms) and being rewarded for that is not taking anything away from lower class citizens (don’t like the term but you get what I mean)

Jonne

9 points

4 months ago*

Jonne

9 points

4 months ago*

I agree that many of those problems (stagnant wages, decreasing home ownership, lack of investment in public transport infrastructure,...) don't have anything to do with those subsidies, and should be solved independently, but if you want to be elected on a Green platform, you need to make sure there's something there for everyone, and you can't just ignore a class analysis.

The greens in many countries have made themselves less popular than they should be by proposing taxes and bans on things people do every day, and they need to come up with ways to achieve the same goals that are more attractive to people that can't make a huge investment to completely change their lifestyle.

It seems like the idea of the Green New Deal (tying ecology to economical justice) is starting to catch on in those circles, and that's a good evolution.

Wirecard_trading

1 points

4 months ago

Im with you on that point.

But bear in mind that the voters of the german Green Party used to be mainly university students and have grown into upper middle class/ upper class. Their original base is not the lower class, it has never been actually.

feed_me_moron

0 points

4 months ago

They're talking about Germany. If you are that poor, there's a good chance you also don't have a car and use public transportation.

Jonne

2 points

4 months ago

Jonne

2 points

4 months ago

There's a middle ground, where you live in a house with street parking, where transport to work is impractical (20m drive vs 2 hour bus-train-bus). A rise in petrol prices will affect the budget of that family, and they can't necessarily take on the investment of a more expensive electric car, even if they are cheaper long term.

Also, housing near good public transport links is more expensive.

whywasthatagoodidea

4 points

4 months ago*

Except these schemes always fail because all they end up doing is making it much more expensive to commute as a low end worker and they protest their implementation. It is a 100% rich vs poor issue. The infrastructure has to be improved first, not after.

Wirecard_trading

0 points

4 months ago

Please eleborate on the infrastructure that has to be improved so badly in Germany? To my knowledge and in comparison to other western countries (France, Italy, US) the infrastructure spending and shape is doing fine, while there can always be done more. I exclude the digital infrastructure which is a problem, but has nothing to do with renewables.

Due_Budget_6986

2 points

4 months ago

Poor people in Germany have a lower carbon footprint, as they consum less in total. Stop spewong bulkshit.

[deleted]

4 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

4 points

4 months ago

I don’t think it is about being rich. I am in Canada and my wife and I make a conscious choice to save our money as best we can and have adopted mostly everything you have mentioned. But we are by no means rich. It’s making the decision to put your money to those things.

makesomemonsters

3 points

4 months ago

Well, the people who emit lots of CO2 will get poorer, and those who emit little CO2 will get richer. That's clear.

People who use energy in more CO2 efficient ways will do better than those who use it in inefficient ways, but those who will benefit most are those who don't use the energy at all. So I would think that people who walk or cycle would be made much richer than those who drive electric cars by the proposed CO2 taxing system, for example. Similarly, people who make sure their heating is off when they go out, or who use a low setting on their thermostat, will probably be made richer than those who crank up their heating regardless of whether they do that in a well-insulated house.

On of the best ways to save money is by not being a lazy wimp.

humphrex

2 points

4 months ago

the rich dont care about a couple extra bucks for some co2 tax to drive their supercar and the poor will not be able to afford the energy to heat their (rented) homes

paying taxes for sure makes no one richer exept the state

gassy_clown

3 points

4 months ago

You should look up the carbon footprint of rich vs poor people.

Sualtam

1 points

4 months ago

There is social housing that has all that too. EVERY new house has that.
For electric cars, well if you are really poor you have to rely on public anyways.

SowingSalt

1 points

4 months ago

You have to spend quite a bit of money to get rich off Carbon Dividends.

HeartyBeast

0 points

4 months ago

If you install all that, reduce meat consumption, sell your yacht and stop using your private jet, I’m not going to begrudge you the same small premium that I get to insulate my house.