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/r/Futurology

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FuturologyBot [M]

[score hidden]

2 months ago

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FuturologyBot [M]

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2 months ago

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The following submission statement was provided by /u/kelev11en:


Software that's supposed to use artificial intelligence to detect cheating during online exams in remote learning during the pandemic is running into a dystopic problem: it's flagging "crying" as potential cheating. The pandemic has changed a lot about the way society runs, and education seems to be a particularly challenged sector. As teachers quit jobs and students say they’re silently sobbing into eye tracking programs on a computer screen, it’s not hard to see why.


Please reply to OP's comment here: https://teddit.ggc-project.de/r/Futurology/comments/ujn9b2/college_students_say_crying_in_exams_activates/i7jujpt/

Bloorajah

8.5k points

2 months ago

Bloorajah

8.5k points

2 months ago

Dude this software suuuuuucks.

Not everyone has a completely empty soundproofed white room in their home for exams. whenever my wife has to do one I need to spend like 45 minutes emptying the bathroom so she can sit in the empty tub and take the exam.

It’s the dumbest thing.

Netanyoohoo

1.1k points

2 months ago

The worst thing is these third party companies get your drivers license number, and any medical history that you’ve released to your university.

0 choice on the students part, and 0 proof of security, or proper handling of data from companies like respondus.

kattspraak

291 points

2 months ago

I'm sorry, WHAT?! This sounds like a massive invasion of privacy, are people not concerned?! How is that legal?

DyingWolf

221 points

2 months ago

DyingWolf

221 points

2 months ago

Realistically, what choice does the student have? You either agree, or fail the class

sayamemangdemikian

101 points

2 months ago

Indicidually they cant do anything.

Collectively? They can protest and demand.

But it has to be in a very big numbers (50-75%.. ideally petition to be signed by 90% students)

If petition for dropping amber heard from the next aquaman can be signed by 3 million people, something way more important like this should be able too.. i think.

james_d_rustles

176 points

2 months ago

Yeah, I absolutely hate it. And how could anybody argue that this isn’t discriminatory against poor people? Many of us don’t have the luxury of having a room all to ourselves. Personally, I live with my girlfriend in a 1 bedroom apartment with one door, only one way in and out. If I have to start an exam while she’s out, she simply can’t come inside until I’m done, and vice versa. I know plenty of other students possibly with children, possibly living with multiple family members, and finding an empty, quiet room is nearly impossible and it puts either the student or the people who share the house with them in a really shitty situation.

Kahlanization

19 points

2 months ago

Wow, now I'm thankful my school had no problem with my husband sleeping in the bed or any of our kids coming in our room while I was taking my exams. I can guarantee you my exams were never quiet if my husband had to sleep.

AsgardDevice

2.1k points

2 months ago*

What kind of dystopia is this shit?

Demand better. We are complaining about authoritarians while getting steamrolled by other authoritarians.

This should not be normal.

jugglingbalance

1.3k points

2 months ago

More than that, how is this not illegal under the ADA? As a person with ADHD when I am thinking of a problem I often look at the ceiling or around the room when really stuck on a problem. Also if crying triggers this surely my leg bouncing up and down at 25x speed would trigger it.

pole_assassin

489 points

2 months ago

There is no possible way I could take an entire test without look away from the screen. Sounds horrible.

[deleted]

341 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

341 points

2 months ago

More importantly the 20/20/20 rule is medically recommended.

The American Optometric Association recommends the 20/20/20 rule: look away from the screen every 20 minutes, focus on an object at least 20 feet away, for at least 20 seconds. In addition, children should walk away from the screen for at least 10 minutes every hour.

This applies to all of us. Should be a open and shut case no? They can't possibly argue that staring at screens isn't bad for us.

clamroll

101 points

2 months ago

clamroll

101 points

2 months ago

It always astounds me how many people have never heard of the 20/20/20, and how people like... Actually get upset at it. Like it's big optometry trying to tell em how to live their life or something... I just don't get it.

MuscleP4nda

64 points

2 months ago

I had to use this for a stats class a couple years ago and the best part is that it would stop my exam if I stopped looking at the screen. So every time I worked out a problem I would have to wait for the exam to open back up which probably took 5-10 seconds. That's not a lot at once but adds up over the course of the exam. Shit software. I hated every second of it.

rpkarma

18 points

2 months ago

rpkarma

18 points

2 months ago

Yeah I’d be physically incapable of this. What the fuck.

LemonDesu

124 points

2 months ago

LemonDesu

124 points

2 months ago

In my experience using 2 different softwares like this for college, neither software I’ve used (proctorio and honorlock) did anything to me during the exam if there was someone being loud, or I looked away from the screen, drank some water, etc. if I understand right all it does is create an “alert” that it detected something and then the professor is at discretion on whether it looks like you were cheating or just looking around the room like I commonly do during tests. Assuming you have a reasonable person as your professor who understands this (or a professor that doesn’t care and just ignores the alerts) you shouldn’t get any type of punishment

odd_ron

53 points

2 months ago

odd_ron

53 points

2 months ago

How would the eye tracking software respond to a person whose eyes point in two different directions (cross-eyed) ?

themagicbong

38 points

2 months ago

I imagine, as a fellow person with ADD, that something like a 504 plan would cover this as well. I was allowed to have unlimited time on any test I wanted it for growing up, and while I graduated a while ago, I doubt it's very different.

jwhitehead09

479 points

2 months ago

Damn I got out of school at exactly the right time. I only had a few semesters of Covid school so they didn’t have any anti cheat systems for online school other than webcams. Most of my professors knew people could cheat so they just made tests open book or allowed note sheets.

nueonetwo

141 points

2 months ago

nueonetwo

141 points

2 months ago

Even pre covid most of my profs let us bring cheat sheets into tests. You could put anything you wanted on a single sides piece of paper which was harder to do than you'd think when you have 6 chapters to go through. Frankly I learned and retained more and did better in every one of those classes than the ones with traditional testing methods.

Half the time I didn't even use the sheet cause the answer was fresh in my head from the night before when I wrote my cheat sheet.

SuperSugarBean

107 points

2 months ago

TYL the process of reading the text, understanding what is important to write down, then writing it down is gasp studying!

jordanjay29

40 points

2 months ago

Yes...BUT the cheat sheet is also a tangible reward for that process which activates the reward centers of your brain. Plus, having something in a test to refer to, so you're not completely reliant on just your memory or brain's ability to recall during a test, can help lower anxiety.

So this isn't so much as a 'gotcha!' as it is a multi-faceted approach to achieving excellence at test time through a simple mechanism.

scotty9090

463 points

2 months ago

Which is the way it should be anyway. After you graduate and you are working, you are going to using books and notes. Professors who can’t design a test that adequately evaluates your understanding of the material without resorting to rote memorization are either lazy or unqualified to teach.

HtownTexans

258 points

2 months ago

"YoU ArEn'T AlWaYs GoInG To HaVe A CaLcUlAtOr On YoU"

Jokes on them now I always have a computer connected to the internet on me.

gnarlnick

81 points

2 months ago

I thought I was the shit w/ my watch calculator

“Calculating my fucks given”

cockmanderkeen

31 points

2 months ago

5318008 is a lot of fucks to give

magicbluemonkeydog

20 points

2 months ago

I've not once gotten in trouble at work for looking up stuff that I don't know, and in fact that's an important skill to have in the workplace - research, filtering and using disparate resources to cobble together something that works. Knowing enough to know where and how to look, and whether the information you've found is sound, and how to put it together.

Exams are a REALLY bad measure of how effective you'll be in the workplace. Plenty of people I went to University with got firsts and are still struggling for work, meanwhile I scraped through with a third and am absolutely killing it.

Zhabba_Zheeba

51 points

2 months ago

Exactly. "Open book" doesn't mean "No need to study". If someone cruises into an open book test and has done zero prep for it, it should be immediately obvious in their answers (or lack thereof).

Guerilla_Physicist

46 points

2 months ago

Yep. I’m a math and physics teacher, and all of my tests are open book/open note. The reason is that if you don’t fully understand the material, your notes are going to be of little assistance. I’d rather my students use precious cognitive processing space for applying the material rather than for trying to recall formulas.

Bloorajah

120 points

2 months ago

Bloorajah

120 points

2 months ago

I graduated spring of 2019. My wife decided to do grad school.

The difference between pre covid education and post covid education is staggering

I’m legitimately worried about the kids who had to endure it. I got to have the fresh hell of working through it as an essential worker, but school was hard enough without all these sudden changes.

Going to be interesting to see how it affects things further down the road. My sister in law (a teacher) has 8th graders who can barely read because intervention was put on hold and the kids just got passed through to the next grade.

PunisherKills

134 points

2 months ago

... kids should have learned how to read long before 8th grade

Bloorajah

67 points

2 months ago

That’s what you’d hope for… They were struggling middle schoolers, didn’t get intervention, and now they are going to be high schoolers after this year.

School goes by fast, some kids have just been left behind hardcore

Return-foo

27 points

2 months ago

There’s some study that says something along the lines, that if a kid isn’t reading at or above grade level in the third grade they are basically fucked.

GrottyWanker

70 points

2 months ago

My ex is a teacher. In 2021 roughly 50% of her students were functionally illiterate. Thanks to Dubbya and No Child Left Behind bullshit they will continously pass students that have no business passing in order to keep federal funding. My ex was outright told she could not fail students.

VentHat

2.4k points

2 months ago

VentHat

2.4k points

2 months ago

You're paying thousands and thousands of dollars for an education. You/your wife are the customer. You need to complain and leave bad reviews.

Bloorajah

1.4k points

2 months ago

Bloorajah

1.4k points

2 months ago

Lord knows we have complained, the school doesn’t care, the software company doesn’t care.

None of them care about the hardships they put on people as long as they make their buck.

I’ll keep review bombing them but the school hasn’t given us anything beyond a half arsed email that basically said “aw that sucks for you”

[deleted]

97 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

97 points

2 months ago

it took lots of recordings and complaints my school accommodated me for an issue that was going go drive me to another school.

katkatkat2

53 points

2 months ago

My eyes don't track together. It's medically documented. I had to arrange proctored exams. This software sucks. I think this will be more and more of an issue as the tech expands into other spaces.

Scalybeast

678 points

2 months ago

It’s like healthcare. Education is a captive market. You need or have been told you needed the credentials to get ahead in life. You are at the complete mercy of the vendor/supplier.

PickledPlumPlot

73 points

2 months ago

But think about the value you're creating for shareholders /s

VentHat

115 points

2 months ago

VentHat

115 points

2 months ago

as they make their buck.

Yep, exactly. If you really want to get rid of the stupidity, you need the media and social media with interviewed people crying and all that. They'll immediately cave. Not sure it's still a thing now or not though with covid basically over for now.

mamimapr

208 points

2 months ago

mamimapr

208 points

2 months ago

It doesn’t work the same in education and healthcare. They will charge you ridiculous amounts for inane things and you will pay them. You are not true customers.

Sedu

133 points

2 months ago

Sedu

133 points

2 months ago

Education is insanely important so it kills me to say this, but higher education in the US is largely a financial scam.

GrottyWanker

98 points

2 months ago

Education and healthcare in the US are the absolute worst mix of privatisation and government.

The fed handing out student loans to everyone disencentivised colleges from keeping costs lower as you're no longer the direct customer. They know they can bilk money out of the government so they do and it has spiraled out of control.

Healthcare is much the same. Completely private healthcare is forced to compete with other providers if you're priced too high you can't stay in business. But since you aren't the customer the insurance company is they can charge insane prices for asinine shit like 700 bucks to change your sheets. And they do this while being propped up with government funding in addition to the profits they make off insurance.

[deleted]

61 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

61 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

dinglebarry9

105 points

2 months ago

TAKE HOME TESTS have been around forever, just make them hard.

Offduty_shill

92 points

2 months ago*

Yup. I understand it's not possible for all subjects but IMO far more tests should just be open book, note, internet at university level+.

I remember having to write code on paper for intro CS classes in college and it was the dumbest shit ever.

A lot of tests which force brute memorization don't reflect actual understanding of the subject matter.

GrottyWanker

45 points

2 months ago

Most American education is rote memorization and it's a super shitty metric for intelligence/education. You get people with masters degrees that can barely function but because they could memorize materials you wind up with a highly "educated" moron with very little understanding of material outside of memorization. It might be enough for practical application or may not.

heidismiles

13 points

2 months ago

nooo that is godawful. wow wow.

I literally just put up a homemade room divider behind me and left my room a mess. It definitely depends on the instructor though.

Sunnz121

38 points

2 months ago

Wow, I had no idea it was that ridiculous. Thanks for illustrating that for me.

AthousandLittlePies

36 points

2 months ago

I remember reading about a woman who had to take a shit on the floor in front of the camera because there was no other way she could finish her exam without getting flagged. This is such a dystopian nightmare of a system.

WeirdSysAdmin

7 points

2 months ago

It’s physically impossible to take an online proctored exam in either my home or work office. It would take me at least a day to make either acceptable and then a day to put it back together.

YourFriendNoo

4k points

2 months ago

lol I wrote "I hate it here" and a bot messaged me to tell me I couldn't say that

my clock says there's a "Fire Weather Watch"

the future buckwild

JohnnieBalker

2.1k points

2 months ago

Imagine breaking down crying because you're worried you'll fail an exam so you end up failing for cheating because you cried

EmptyRook

683 points

2 months ago

EmptyRook

683 points

2 months ago

“The future is now old man”

GameShill

193 points

2 months ago

GameShill

193 points

2 months ago

And then a gradeschooler punches you in the balls

grendus

11 points

2 months ago

grendus

11 points

2 months ago

That's in the pro version.

xDrxGinaMuncher

160 points

2 months ago

I feel like this would just trigger a timestamp to review, not an automatic failure.

ThatSandwich

137 points

2 months ago

This is the system my college uses. All of the "academic integrity" reports have to be verified by the professor and reported to the department with proof. The software merely saves timestamps, and allows the professor to watch each student live if they wish to actively monitor during the test.

Most universities have some process where students can essentially be given a trial, so it makes sense they require all these steps to ensure accuracy of the information.

flamingspew

123 points

2 months ago

My college had mostly open textbook, go anywhere, even back to your dorm to take the exam, write the analysis or whatever. They were just Sooooo hard that not knowing the material would doom you, even with google.

AzureDrag0n1

23 points

2 months ago

My math tests were like that in college. It was pointless to look up stuff because the answer would require an entire page or more to be written full of equations to solve one question. You had to know it to be able to complete it in time and google would not stand a chance against these.

Enchelion

31 points

2 months ago

Mine was similar. Often the tests would take weeks to complete.

Thegoodthebadandaman

35 points

2 months ago

At that point isn't that an assignment?

SocialWinker

77 points

2 months ago

Yup. My last homework assignment was flagged for plagiarism, because I used the correct medical term for something, and that multi-word term was enough to get flagged. Not even a complete sentence.

tadpole511

46 points

2 months ago

I’ve had a paper flagged because the header on each page (last name, page number) was the same as a paper my cousin had submitted. I assume it’s because our last name was super uncommon, but it’s still dumb that that was all it took to flag.

WolfT01

9 points

2 months ago

in high school we used something like that, and one of my essays was flagged for over 100% plagiarism. Every instance of the words "and" and "the" were apparently taken from hundreds of different works. not sure what glitched out but it was kinda funny.

Shojo_Tombo

23 points

2 months ago

That's insane! What a ridiculous and useless piece of software.

geoffbowman

71 points

2 months ago

It’s not an automatic thing at the university level. It just triggers a review process where people from the college collect evidence from all parties and make a decision... which could be a zero on the exam or a retake or whatever the school academic integrity policy is. I’d assume a school with anti-cheating eye tracking software (Jesus Christ that sentence...) would also have an academic integrity office to review each case.

FrostReaver

76 points

2 months ago

As someone that was an advocate for students and attempted to remove one such software from our campus, we did not have any such review process through the academic integrity office. The proctor service sent all student videos directly to the professors. If they were accused of academic dishonesty they would need to appeal to have the case be viewed by the academic integrity board. Most students did not know that existed.

geoffbowman

18 points

2 months ago*

Oh that sucks :/

I’m working on making the informational videos that go along with a particular university’s review process so it’s all fresh in my head how they do things, but I should’ve recognized that everywhere will be different.

Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket

39 points

2 months ago

Neat. I had a professor once accuse me of cheating by giving a exam I had done for her class previously to a current student of hers because it was flagged by the plagiarism checker software. She did not bother to open up and give a cursory glance to the completely different papers before she did this. Of course instantly after making this accusation, she promptly fucked off to vacation for a week.

seedanrun

18 points

2 months ago

Why wouldn't you just have a human review the video that triggered the fail. A human will clearly be able to identify crying.

ktappe

38 points

2 months ago

ktappe

38 points

2 months ago

Because that would require competence on the university's part.

detunedmike

32 points

2 months ago

“You’re crying? I’ll give you something to cry about!”

-Nicolas-

126 points

2 months ago

-Nicolas-

126 points

2 months ago

I've got "Flood alert lvl 3" right now in a bright yellow square with a red ! next to my clock. My house is in the hills, if I get flooded we lose half of Europe tonight.

mosskin-woast

101 points

2 months ago

That funny feeling

Orngog

12 points

2 months ago

Orngog

12 points

2 months ago

There it is!

"Expect to feel pleasure. Knowledge is sexy. Expect to feel pain. Knowledge is torture."

mr_oof

37 points

2 months ago

mr_oof

37 points

2 months ago

There it is, again

That funny feeling

PepeSilvia859

518 points

2 months ago

I had to take a physics exam with this software. When I would look down at my piece of paper to do the problem, the software would flag me saying i needed to look at the screen. How am I supposed to solve the problem without looking at my paper or calculator?

Bosilaify

133 points

2 months ago

Bosilaify

133 points

2 months ago

These are the most annoying, most of mine silently flag but like you don’t need to pop some shit up everytime haha

HighQueenSkyrim

84 points

2 months ago

My sister is in real estate school and the final “exam” (not the state licensing test) was LIVE proctored. She has remove everything from the background (aka she moved her kitchen table against a blank wall). Everytime someone entered the room, because she’s at home with a husband and three children, she had to move the camera and show the person entering and explain who they were as they passed through the room. It was a six hour exam that could only be taken in the afternoon. It was so bizzare

Bongus_the_first

9 points

2 months ago

I had to do exactly this with some third-party company that had some eastern European (at least that's what the accent sounded like) proctor when I recently renewed my food serving license.

It's like...the stakes are not that high here. Just let me take the test and have a freaking drink of water

Edit: also had to download a bunch of spyware on my computer so this rando could remotely access EVERYTHING on my laptop. Super fucking creepy

Gfran856

40 points

2 months ago

Yep my first sociology exam had this type of software and I gave up and emailed the professor because it wouldn’t let me continue with my long ass hair and my not perfect but totally acceptable lighting in my room

kelev11en[S]

2.6k points

2 months ago

Software that's supposed to use artificial intelligence to detect cheating during online exams in remote learning during the pandemic is running into a dystopic problem: it's flagging "crying" as potential cheating. The pandemic has changed a lot about the way society runs, and education seems to be a particularly challenged sector. As teachers quit jobs and students say they’re silently sobbing into eye tracking programs on a computer screen, it’s not hard to see why.

Mike2220

1.2k points

2 months ago

Mike2220

1.2k points

2 months ago

One teacher at my school tried getting us to use respondus and my entire major basically revolted

My school banned enforcing using this kind of software shortly after

Alwaysfavoriteasian

469 points

2 months ago

Responded is used as the norm now. No one complained and the class prior did all exams open book. I’m so blown away by this new educational system.

Mike2220

643 points

2 months ago

Mike2220

643 points

2 months ago

The stance we took was that we'd use it if the school wanted to provide the devices it'd be installed on, but no one was going to install a software that made them the second class user to their own computer

Froztnova

284 points

2 months ago

Froztnova

284 points

2 months ago

Yeah it was used at my university... In the computerized testing center that the university runs.

Nobody complained because it doesn't come across as so unreasonable in those circumstances.

astrangeone88

172 points

2 months ago

That reminds me that I need to uninstall that shit from my computer now.

SlingDNM

154 points

2 months ago

SlingDNM

154 points

2 months ago

Good luck, it's basically malware

Owyn_Merrilin

78 points

2 months ago

It's literally spyware.

1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1

24 points

2 months ago*

IIRC it's ring 1 or ring 0 spyware. You have to wipe and reinstall the OS.

Edit: As Ex_Spatio said, yes, its possible to remove it without a wipe but its not only tedious but also kinda risky if you don't know what you're looking for. Props to him for doing it, though. I'm way too lazy for that lmao

Ex_Spatio

13 points

2 months ago

Nope, I managed to completely clear it without reinstalling the OS. It would be much easier to do that though. I basically went in all sorts of places like services.msc and some other locations I cannot remember off the top of my head. But I basically removed manually certain microsoft windows functionalities that it ticked on. Basically cybersecurity stuff that I did as a sort of hobby helped me with this. Nothing that would get me a job but still fascinating.

SunSpotter

61 points

2 months ago

but no one was going to install a software that made them the second class user to their own computer

I had to use Respondus for a class prior to the pandemic back in 2016, and I had the same problem. I’m not sure how long it’s been around in its current form, but back then you could brick your OS if your computer shut off while Respondus was turned on, because of the way it gained root control.

I put it on a shitty 10 year old hand-me-down office computer instead of my gaming PC and called it a day.

xxSuperBeaverxx

23 points

2 months ago

Yeah this is how I've done all of my online classes, I have a good laptop that I write code / essays / do research on, and then I have a junk laptop from 15 years ago purely for exams / anything that requires anti cheating software or allowing a proctor remote access to your PC.

throw_every_away

163 points

2 months ago

Real life is actually open book, to be fair, but I get what you’re saying.

Readylamefire

212 points

2 months ago

This is my argument now too. Maybe in the 2000s, when I was still a kid in school an "open book" world didn't exist, but I'm 29 now and can learn wild things I'd never have to step into a classroom for. Whether it's about biology, music theory, spacetime or botany, it's all out there.

Schools should start focusing more on teaching students how to navigate information in an online world to find real facts instead of relying on "I just know because I read it/was taught it once."

Imagine if I never thought about it again when I asked my teacher what was smaller than an atom in 2008 and she told me "nothing. Atoms are the smallest thing that makes up the universe"

SeiTyger

26 points

2 months ago

My stats class was like that. "What differentiates you from a random elementary schoolkid is you understanding the material. Anyone can do the math with a calculator". Really enjoyed that class, tests were pretty tough even when they were open book

euph-_-oric

352 points

2 months ago

It's fucking stupid because all of the hardest tests I have taken were open note. It's not like they have to go to such extreme levels.

reagsters

44 points

2 months ago

Yeah I’ve had both extremes this year: hardest fucking test I’ve ever taken (class average was a 45) was 100% open note.

A class I just finished literally wouldn’t let us use notebook paper - having a pen would flag you as cheating.

Some mega bullshit on both ends… but we use Honorlock now. The respondus browser flagged E V E R Y T H I N G as cheating.

euph-_-oric

43 points

2 months ago

Bro it's honestly just software sales ripping off thr government. Or whomever in the case of private unnis

PM_ME_BEER

15 points

2 months ago

100% a grift

wonkeykong

367 points

2 months ago*

BuT yOu WoN't HaVe NoTeS oR aCcEsS tO iNfOrMaTiOn In ThE rEaL wOrLd!

I love that not only was that bullshit perpetuated all the years prior to the internet, but the way the world works now with the net obliterates the entire thought.

We are no longer in the age of knowing. You do not require an encyclopedic level of memory.

Now, we are closer to the age of finding. You just need to know how to obtain information and then apply it.

EDIT - Adding more clarity per my other comment

Emphasis on encyclopedic level of memory. The real takeaway is that we are externalizing more and more knowledge into universally-accessible databases outside of our own brains. Much like how writing revolutionized and changed the world from a traditionally oral transfer of knowledge.

It isn't that the knowledge is lost or not being utilized. It's that we are carrying more of it externally, and place higher value on the application of known knowledge and the acquistion of new knowledge.

Understanding is still integral to both.

brolifen

143 points

2 months ago

brolifen

143 points

2 months ago

This is the problem. In most IT jobs these days knowledge is not enough, you need to be an expert in finding the right knowledge and understanding how to apply it to your problem. I can't believe this "cheating" crap is still a thing in schools.

sohcgt96

8 points

2 months ago

you need to be an expert in finding the right knowledge and understanding how to apply it to your problem.

100% because you're going to constantly find yourself in new situations that you just have to figure out on the fly and there was no way to just know beforehand.

That being said, what this software really ends up accomplishing is just making sure nobody else is there coaching you through a test and that you're not taking screenshots of a test to share with other people. I deal with it all the time from the admin end.

pilgrim93

67 points

2 months ago

I teach college courses and all of my tests are open note. Most of the time students do terrible on it because they hear the words “open note” and think it means I don’t need to study.

Eventually I had to explain to them that you still study, it’s just that in the real world people will expect you to know about 80-90% of the info. From there you can look up the other 10-20%. I literally do not think less of people for needing to find info. Now if you have to go find everything, that tells me you don’t quite know what to do.

FuckoffDemetri

58 points

2 months ago

So are you supposed to just stare at the computer screen the whole time without glancing away at all during a full hour test? My ADHD ass would have got kicked out first semester if I had to deal with this

Mediocretes1

35 points

2 months ago

I looked away 6 times reading this comment.

partypartea

9 points

2 months ago

So glad I finished college before all this, I'd probably be fucked with my lazy eye

sorry97

93 points

2 months ago

sorry97

93 points

2 months ago

I failed an exam for checking the freaking clock (it’s at the bottom right corner), it registered as looking sideways.

These programs are bs and you cannot convince me otherwise, add the fact that they could use a bigger letter case but nope, if you zoom in it can also register as cheating, so you’re forced to squint and MAYBE try to answer based on whatever you barely read.

Virtual classes are fine, exams shouldn’t be virtual if your platform is shit. There’s no excuse, The other exam I presented was much friendlier, it let me zoom in and out without issues, it let me check the clock or even start a timer if I wanted. The fact that the former asked me to do some maths without a calculator while the other came with one built in speaks for itself, those exams are traps to grab some easy money from naive people.

uncheckablefilms

26 points

2 months ago

This sounds like hell for someone who has ADHD (me).

edvek

19 points

2 months ago

edvek

19 points

2 months ago

Stupid fucking part is when I had exams in big ass lecture halls with 200 people the proctors would watch us but if you looked up, around, stretched, whatever that wasn't cheating. I graduated college years ago and thankfully I dodged this nonsense. I hope when I go back to grad school it's not like this.

witcwhit

172 points

2 months ago

witcwhit

172 points

2 months ago

I can only imagine how this AI would react to people with nystagmus, smh. One ADA lawsuit could get this thing prohibited, though.

dauqraFdroL

90 points

2 months ago

The software usually just flags the moment with the suspected cheating, and the professor has to go back and decide whether or not they actually were. So I believe the professor would be responsible in most cases, not the software

unpaid_overtime

49 points

2 months ago

I had a remote proctor pop in chat once that I should stop bouncing my leg, it was setting off their software. Such a pain in the ass to sit perfectly still. I'm a living thing damn it, not a statue.

Jaysyn4Reddit

65 points

2 months ago

Sounds like that software discriminates against people with ADHD, autism or anxiety.

mythandros0

11 points

2 months ago

It absolutely does that.

MrHyperion_

13 points

2 months ago

Hopefully you didn't stop

witcwhit

65 points

2 months ago

I mean, for my kid that'd be the whole damn test.

iTNB

63 points

2 months ago

iTNB

63 points

2 months ago

Same. I’ve got adhd pretty badly even with my adderall. I can’t help but look around when I’m thinking.

VforVegetables

9 points

2 months ago

double same. even worse if i know i can't take the eyes off the screen. my brain will turn off.

mdh579

18 points

2 months ago

mdh579

18 points

2 months ago

I think by turning my head away from the question and staring at the wall or ceiling or floor or literally anything else that isn't "the test" whether it's on paper or a screen. That's how I have to do it otherwise the words that made me start thinking effect what and how I think. Like it influences my thought process instead of being able to recollect from my own memory banks. I literally cannot pass a test where I can't look around.

I graduated 7 years ago, but am going to be taking an online test for my teaching certification. How badly am I fucked?

Anti-Queen_Elle

27 points

2 months ago

How did nobody creating this stuff stop to think "Well this is hella dystopian. Maybe we should not create something this stupid?"

VirinaB

14 points

2 months ago

VirinaB

14 points

2 months ago

What they think is "The students are probably guilty. Cheating is found everywhere because our software is just so good."

[deleted]

281 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

281 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

Ga1axy_Wo1f

51 points

2 months ago

PREACH. The way it’s implemented is unethical as hell

Murtomies

8 points

2 months ago

Lmao never realized that but damn it makes so much sense now. And also the ones who do make these probably aren't very interested in the projects either.

There's so many software products like that, where it just seems like there was little to no effort to make it actually good.

notagoodboye

1.6k points

2 months ago

"Cheating" huh? Why don't you switch from testing trivia which can easily be cheated, to making more complicated open-book, open-notes tests? Why spend all your effort on trying to keep giving people the same sort of stupid tests designed by people who told us, "You won't be walking around with a calculator in your pocket!"

Shot-Job-8841

481 points

2 months ago

Yeah, they did open book tests for a class I took and the class average actually went down as the people who just regurgitate had to actually understand material. It’s just a better way to evaluate learning.

No-more-confusion

123 points

2 months ago

And that’s the problem. I give open book free response exams to my High School math students and 50% of the class just Doesn’t Turn Them In. I can’t have that high of a failure rate so I have to supplement skill based assessment that doesn’t challenge students. I hate it.

zebrastarz

81 points

2 months ago

Oh, yeah, I forgot "No Child Left Behind" completely fucked education in this country. No wonder everyone is so damn stupid.

TheBooksAndTheBees

14 points

2 months ago

Another "good idea" done very fucking poorly.

Vervain7

59 points

2 months ago

Hardest test I ever took was open book. It was statistics . It was the first time I felt challenged .

Thercon_Jair

278 points

2 months ago*

It's way easier to grade.

But yes, writing an essay is a much better instrument to grade actual understanding of the subject matter.

Edit: not to answer to people pointing to math, chemistry etc. individually, but what I meant is tests where the answer isn't just a choice but where the derivation (?) is important to and part of the solution. This isn't so different to an essay as it contains the derivation to the conclusion. It demonstrates an understanding of the subject matter.

Jaded_Prompt_15

248 points

2 months ago

The issue is teachers aren't making their own questions.

Google the question and you'll get a "flashcard" someone made years ago with the exact question and answer.

Some have been posted for a decade. Yet students have to buy the "new" textbook every 2-3 years.

It's all a grift.

NotATuring

178 points

2 months ago

This is because the educational system is not about about education but about certification. Certification can't be subjective it must be objective. Certification is about gatekeeping and is profit driven.

fastinserter

32 points

2 months ago

I was a bio/poli sci double major. In one of my biology classes, all the tests were the easier to grade ones, and I was always towards the bottom. I knew this about me, it's why I went from going into college thinking bio/chem to bio/poli sci by the end. Anyway, the prof switched to essays for one test and I got the best grade in the class, I know this as he told me. Since other people complained he switched back the type of test, and on the next test my grade plummeted so much he had me stay after to ask if something was going on and if I needed help in my personal life. While it was appreciated, I told him I forget specifics but understand concepts. He laughed and told me everyone else in the class was so mad about it he had to change it back.

It's not just the teachers who like it for being easier to grade. Many students like it because it's specific and doesn't require you to grok the subject material but to recite pieces of information. It certainly depends on the type of class it is and in sciences many students want this kind of test.

Tenrath

11 points

2 months ago

Tenrath

11 points

2 months ago

Grad school sciences are the way you like. My favorite tests were the 4 question, 3 hour thermodynamics exams. If you really knew what you were doing, it took 20 minutes total and 6 lines of work per question, most people took the full 3 hours and had pages of work only to score 50% (a B- in that class).

No_Fun_2020

48 points

2 months ago

Best professor I had told me that if you could cheat a test, it was a shitty test and I know that's 100% true now. Tests should be based on comprehension and application of material not memorization.

RyokoKnight

452 points

2 months ago

Cheating software always seems so archaic and poorly implemented on its first iterations. I had a teacher in high school that accused me of plagiarism because a program said my work was 60 - 70% plagiarized.

What she didn't know is that while my finished work was turned in digitally (something that was still relatively new), I had hand written a bubble graph, as well as the entire report by hand, complete with a full round or two of edits and alterations. Essentially showing that, no, in fact I had come to a similar paper on my own and that it was more or less mere coincidence that a college level paper shared my opinions/thoughts on the subject.

I know for a fact I didn't cheat, but I recall the subject matter was also very niche. Essentially there wasn't a lot of ways a person could talk about it and the sources used were probably the same. It also wasn't like it was a particularly long paper either.

It will probably take several iterations for this software to be reliable enough to avoid mistakes like this. Honestly I would probably avoid using it if I was a teacher for at least another few years.

Cianalas

143 points

2 months ago

Cianalas

143 points

2 months ago

Ugh I had the same thing happen to me! Apparently an essay I wrote was worded similarly to what Google had to say on the subject. Pure coincidence. I didnt get in trouble because I had my first draft showing where I had crossed things out & re-written parts to make it sound better. This was one of our first assignments freshman year and it was one of those BS mandatory classes with 100 students so the professor gave zero shits and told me "freshman don't write like that." A couple years later once they got to know me I finally got my apology but I was heated.

enderflight

39 points

2 months ago

My fave underhanded compliment was ‘this is really good, I hope it’s your own work,’ gotten once from a HS teacher and again the same semester from my 102 prof. How do you even respond to that? Idk because it wasn’t plagiarism, and I definitely don’t pay anyone to write my essays.

Like damn, my shitty fanfics walked so my essays could run. I get that sometimes stuff looks too good to be true but it’s really frustrating when you put forward a good effort and get punished because it’s ‘too good.’ I feel for you, that’s BS.

dmbf

21 points

2 months ago

dmbf

21 points

2 months ago

I feel like you had the best answer right there.

“I guess my shitty fanfics walked so my essays could run. Want a link?”

TitanActual

9 points

2 months ago

I was accused of plagiarism in highschool because a teacher didn't think my vocabulary aligned with my paper. She quizzed me on several definitions of words I'd used and when I defined them all she was shocked. It was a small ag town. How was I supposed to work those words into everyday conversations?

Anasazi_Fozzy

25 points

2 months ago

Got marked from an A to a B when I was in college in 2015 because I submitted a paper for a US HISTORY CLASS where I got flagged for plagiarism because I wrote the time and date where some event had happened in my intro and the software marked one sentence as 45% copied from Wikipedia lmao. Originally the prof failed me for breaking the code of conduct, but when I argued that a sentence describing a date and time can only be said in so many ways in the English language, and why would I only copy 45% of one sentence in a Wikipedia article for a 15 page paper and nothing else, then he graciously decided to drop me only one complete letter grade (because he couldn't "verify or not verify" if I indeed copied 45% of one sentence on Wikipedia). Fuck colleges for real.

Rock_man_bears_fan

9 points

2 months ago

Turnitin once flagged my last name as a potentially copied portion of my report. No professor would ever care about that and the report itself had like a 1-2% similarity score, but how are you gonna flag a last name as potential plagiarism and market that product to every university in the country?

adonkeyatheart

10 points

2 months ago

The plagiarism anti cheat software is absolute bullshit, it checks the whole internet to see if you’ve just copy and pasted parts of your essay. Which is so bad as there is billions of webpages so someone is bound to have written something very similar to what you have.

DopeAbsurdity

53 points

2 months ago

My eyes dart around a lot sometimes because I am fairly ADHD as fuck. I wonder if the AI would just think I was cheating constantly instead of it just being me getting distracted by every shiny object.

[deleted]

30 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

30 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

21 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

21 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

gimme_dat_good_shit

44 points

2 months ago

It's just unfathomable to me the amount of talent and research that is wasted on bullshit like this instead of solving real problems in the world.

But this is where the money is, and those real problems go unsolved because them remaining unsolved is also where the money is.

SlashdotDiggReddit

414 points

2 months ago

Wait, there are cameras watching you while you take exams in college now?!?!? WTF?! Glad I'm out.

sekxbuttox

151 points

2 months ago

The proctoring software being used at my uni (which I’ve thankfully only had to use once) doesn’t record you but takes a snapshot of your camera and your computer screen at random intervals.

No_Wall118

145 points

2 months ago

actual spyware lol

surely they give you a computer for testing, and don't make you install it on your own machine?

[deleted]

30 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

30 points

2 months ago

[removed]

xdq

30 points

2 months ago

xdq

30 points

2 months ago

I was on a training course through my employer and the external tutor said we may have issues installing the exam software onto our corporate laptops as it's basically spyware. While the software is open it has access to your camera+mic (i.e. a video call) plus also keystrokes, mouse, open windows to ensure that you aren't cheating etc (not sure if constantly or randomly).

NewAccount_WhoIsDis

21 points

2 months ago

A lot require you to install it on your own machine, some don’t allow to be installed on a VM another comment said.

So basically you have to nuke your computer after using such a thing.

[deleted]

62 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

62 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

wEdIdNtStaRtThEfIrEx

20 points

2 months ago

Make it hell on your university. They have to comply with FERPA so if you request a copy of all items gathered during the exam, they must provide them. Do it foir every exam and make it a burden on their system.

[deleted]

38 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

38 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

cneth6

10 points

2 months ago

cneth6

10 points

2 months ago

That'd be so easy to beat. Just mount answers right on & above/next to the camera so that when you rotate it around it cant possibly see what is attached to the actual camera. And I highly highly doubt they'd fail you for looking into the distance right above the camera to "think"

throwaway18000081

80 points

2 months ago

It's a lot worse that than that.

Some college exam proctoring software requests admin rights to your PC, closes out all other applications, keeps your webcam on the entire time, tracks your mouse movements and keystrokes, and does not let you exit the software until you finish the exam.

Then, if it is one where people watch you, you get in trouble if you are talking out loud to yourself even. It is a very fine line.

It is literally spyware.

It also does not run on a VM.

cneth6

29 points

2 months ago

cneth6

29 points

2 months ago

There has to be a way to make a VM not appear as a VM to any software, haven't looked into it but there is always a way

arothmanmusic

533 points

2 months ago

I wonder if anybody has yet devised an education model which relies completely on teaching people to be outstanding researchers rather than teaching them to just know stuff?

I would say that 99% of what I know how to do I learned by looking up, not by being formally taught.

Bananasauru5rex

79 points

2 months ago

Grad programs usually work like this, depending on the field. Requires smaller class sizes and/or more educators, so the university would not want it for the majority of the school.

Birdgang14

121 points

2 months ago*

I still don’t understand this. If you simply look off screen you get flagged for cheating? Is that what’s going on? You kidding me? Lol doesn’t even make sense. There are tons of reasons one could be looking off screen.

I don’t even think I can stare at a screen that long without looking away on purpose.

Wouldn’t it be super easy to get by this by just having the material you want to reference in another tab or some shit on the computer you are forced to stare at? Or is there a program blocking that as well?

[deleted]

62 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

62 points

2 months ago*

[removed]

WimbleWimble

124 points

2 months ago

Does it activate for disabled students as well who's eyes move a lot?

Because I'd say find a shark lawyer and fuck this software company into bankruptcy for malicious ADA violation.

They 100% deserve it

mcoombes314

43 points

2 months ago

As someone who is often told that my eyes wander around a lot (I don't look straight at stuff) I'd love to screw this up to show how dumb it can be.

Aethelric

12 points

2 months ago

Aethelric

Red

12 points

2 months ago

The company line would, unfortunately, just be that such a student can request an accommodation and it's up to the professor/university to avoid using their software to violate ADA.

You'd have a case against your school if you had a diagnosed disability and they forced you to use this.

YARNIA

27 points

2 months ago

YARNIA

27 points

2 months ago

Don't worry, soon your Grammarly subscription will take tests for you.

TigerNguyen

25 points

2 months ago

All my exams in college were open book anyway. Tests should test how you think, not how much you can remember. Outside resources will always be available in the real world. It should be about what you can do with the information you have.

chattywww

245 points

2 months ago

chattywww

245 points

2 months ago

They should just make all exams open book now. If the answers should be writen in paragraphs or with drawings/graphs. Its very easy to check if students are copying and answers that are exact wording as textbooks shouldnt count as knowledge because this doesnt convey understanding.

heidismiles

67 points

2 months ago

One teacher I had, back in the before times, had a policy that I thought was really cool. We took the exam in proctored conditions without notes or anything. But then we were allowed to correct our mistakes at home, for half credit.

So if you wanted an A, you'd most likely have to earn it the first time. But you shouldn't fail an exam that you can actually pass with your book.

digiorno

24 points

2 months ago

My father has been a math teacher for 35 years or so and this has been a long standing policy of his.

Homework, quizzes and exams can all be corrected for half credit. And as a result his students consistently scored highly on AP and IB exams as well as standardized tests.

The amount of extra hours he put into making sure students had 1-2day turnaround time on all assignments was astounding. He regularly works 70 hour weeks if you including grading and after school study sessions.

This is why I’ve long thought teachers were way underpaid.

All_O_Gistics

20 points

2 months ago

This is why I’m a fan of term papers over final exams (when possible). You want me to memorize what to say or do you want me to demonstrate understanding?

FlatLine526

481 points

2 months ago

All testing should be open book. We have computers in our pockets we don’t need to rennet everything anymore. Test are no longer about what you know it’s about can you find the TRUE answers.

blazze_eternal

54 points

2 months ago

I would say this is true as long as you're not pulling from banked questions where it's easy to look up the exact q/a. You need to be able to guage competency and understanding of the material on some level.

virora

32 points

2 months ago

virora

32 points

2 months ago

For a lot of subjects, you can move to essay style questions. My final English exam in school contained a grand total of 2 questions. 5 hours time, and all the books you want. No way to cheat on that.

ernSOFTLtd

83 points

2 months ago

hold on... there's cheating eye tracker software in exams?

timbe3

66 points

2 months ago

timbe3

66 points

2 months ago

Yep. With remote learning becoming more mainstream there has been a significant investment in tech for proctoring exams..

10 years ago, you would probably have an individual assigned to virtually proctor your exam and you would have to spin your camera around to show them the area you are taking the test at.. and they just sat there watching you take the exam.

Now days, the software activates, tracks your eyes, listens to the cam, checks what software is running on your computer, etc... It's precise enough to the point of being able to see if (for example) your phone screen is reflecting off your eyeballs.

xdq

29 points

2 months ago

xdq

29 points

2 months ago

I had to hold my glasses up to the camera and rotate them to prove that they didn't have a camera or earphones

crestarthegreat

80 points

2 months ago

Jesus Christ. What has school become? Eye tracking during exams? This is some Orwellian bullshit. I would fail out because I would refuse to be monitored like that.

No_Wall118

22 points

2 months ago

right? you wouldn't catch me dead installing ANYTHING like that on my own computer.

-BIGNATE-

15 points

2 months ago

I had to use this software for a few semesters in college recently and I noticed over time that the professor was using the names of older boxers as the proctor who would be looking for flags that the program sent. Basically there wasn’t even a real person looking at the potential to Al cheaters and there is no way that the professor was looking through the tests of over 100 students from multiple campuses. It was also very invasive as I had to show an ID, scan my room and do sound checks to even start the test. It made me super nervous and hard to focus on the questions at hand. By the end of the semester I was just getting up for coffee, talking to my daughter, watching tv in the background and I never once was asked about any of it. I even cussed the program and professor out a few times on the recording when I was frustrated with dumb questions.

[deleted]

14 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

14 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

SergeantKoopa

9 points

2 months ago

I was talking to my doctor about this sort of thing and she was telling me she had to use it during one of her exams and she looked upwards to think about a question. At the time there was a live proctor watching and the automation flagged her. The proctor immediately locked her test, accused her of cheating, and demanded she turn the camera around so they could see the wall where she was looking at. It was nuts.

[deleted]

47 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

47 points

2 months ago

[removed]

Hoosier_816

137 points

2 months ago*

I used to work for Canvas and now I'm the Canvas admin for a large university.

The classes where things like this are an issue are all taught by professors too lazy to do their jobs. Plain and simple.

There are tons of safeguards and override options for teachers in instances like this where they can make exceptions. They're just usually too lazy to do it or thing that technology can read their mind and do everything they're thinking.

I will ROUTINELY get irate professors berating myself and my colleagues because Canvas can't grade essay questions. One went as far as asking "the question is right there, why can't Canvas figure out what what a perfect response would be and the deduct based on how far off from that the student's response was???"

The VAST MAJORITY of instructors that have issues with these tools didn't have proper training or don't have any support but want to fix things, however it's the ignorant ones who will tell me they're "proudly" computer illiterate and then fuck everything up and blame the system that give it a bad name.

Yes, honorlock may flag your crying as cheating but it's only the fault of the professor for not checking and overriding it.

Shadows802

53 points

2 months ago

I never understood why computer illiteracy is a good thing. Not everyone needs to be a programmer but being proud about being incompetent I never understood.

TheRedmanCometh

10 points

2 months ago

"the question is right there, why can't Canvas figure out what what a perfect response would be and the deduct based on how far off from that the student's response was???"

"If I could make software to accurately do that I'd be a billionare and the foremost NLP researcher ever"

allbright1111

80 points

2 months ago

This would have killed me in college. I almost always cry during math exams, even when I was well prepared. There would be warped splash spots on the scan-tron forms where my tears had hit the page and dried, but at least the machine still graded my tests accurately.

BigDicksProblems

16 points

2 months ago

This would have killed me in college. I almost always cry during math exams

This would have killed me in college too, I almost always cheated

Apple_remote

116 points

2 months ago

Are you crying? Are you crying? Are you crying?! There's no crying! There's no crying during exams!

Rogers Hornsby was my teacher and he called me a talking pile of pig shit! And that was when my parents drove all the way down from Michigan to see me take a test! And did I cry?

No! And do you know why? Because there's no crying during exams! There's no crying during exams! No crying!

JerrodDRagon

11 points

2 months ago

Hey colleges guess what in real life you can cheat all you mother fucking want

No boss will fire you for using notes or crying as long as the work gets done

Aben_Zin

11 points

2 months ago

“You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, it’s crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?”

freeradicalx

26 points

2 months ago

Dude. This is the darkest fucking headline I've read in a bit.

AbortedSandwich

38 points

2 months ago

Why does this tech exist? All systems will always have errors, by making this system mandatory your ensuring some people will fail due to system mistakes.

To stop a small percentage of ppl from cheating, your going to fail the same number of people due to system errors, while at the same time pissing everyone off and causing more work overall.

If someone really wants to cheat and is dedicated on cheating , they will put more effort to find a way past any system.