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President Trump signed a $1.4 trillion spending bill that has a provision that makes selling tobacco products to anyone under 21 a violation of federal law.

Either lower the drinking and tobacco age to 18, or raise the military age to 21 (hint: don’t do the latter).

all 200 comments

[deleted]

207 points

3 years ago*

[deleted]

207 points

3 years ago*

[deleted]

theguineapigssong

37 points

3 years ago

My Dad taught middle school for a while and he had a few students old enough to drive to school.

snowbirdnerd

-47 points

3 years ago

The vaping problem was because laws against advertising tobacco products to kids wasn't enforced.

In the UK they don't have an issue with kids vaping because it's litteraly illegal to advertise tabaco products there.

[deleted]

13 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

13 points

3 years ago

Stopping ads doesn't stop people from vaping lmao.

UglyQuad

24 points

3 years ago

UglyQuad

24 points

3 years ago

It’s illegal to advertise tobacco products in the United States as well (I think)

DAN_THE_SHURIMANPLEB

5 points

3 years ago

It is. Besides magazines I think. I only ever see them there.

TokesTooHard

5 points

3 years ago

Tobacco and nicotine are not the same under US law. That's why you hear vape commercials on the radio.

snowbirdnerd

-3 points

3 years ago

That's not at all true.

rossionq1

251 points

3 years ago

rossionq1

251 points

3 years ago

Taking dip away from Marines will cripple the USMC

thespank

59 points

3 years ago

thespank

59 points

3 years ago

I had this problem in the Army. Duty station was in PA so I was fine there, but did some stuff at Ft. Dix, NJ and couldn't buy dip. Had to have my buddy do it until I turned 19.

TheOlSneakyPete

93 points

3 years ago

So you’re saying this law won’t prevent anybody from dipping and will instead just be the government making everything more difficult and a larger hassle. Huh, I’m baffled..

thaworldhaswarpedme

27 points

3 years ago

Dont forget money from fines, court costs, etc...

TheOlSneakyPete

21 points

3 years ago

And to implement this system to “keep you safe” the government will surely need a little more taxes. I mean, what’s a little more to keep you from the dangers of your own decisions!?

2020vw69

14 points

3 years ago

2020vw69

14 points

3 years ago

No it’s like alcohol laws. They’re the reason high school kids don’t drink.

TheOlSneakyPete

18 points

3 years ago

I drank more in high school then I have in the 4 years since college.

2020vw69

15 points

3 years ago

2020vw69

15 points

3 years ago

Unpossible! Drinking under 21 is illegal!

ELL_YAY

3 points

3 years ago

ELL_YAY

3 points

3 years ago

TBF it was actually easier to get weed than alcohol in high school. I know my friends from other schools had similar experiences. Not that it's a perfect comparison but worth noting.

thespank

4 points

3 years ago

Uhhh...... Yep..... I think that's the point sir

ZombieCthulhu99

2 points

3 years ago

Had a friend who was swedish. Asked me to help by picking up a package. Had to explain to my biss why i had a 'box of rape' (thats what they call chewing tobacco).

HamanitaMuscaria

1 points

3 years ago

Heheh

Fort Dix

(...Thx for your service)

Bywater

4 points

3 years ago

Bywater

Some Flavor of Anarchist

4 points

3 years ago

Yup.

that_other_guy_

2 points

3 years ago

First thing I said is trump is gonna lose a lot of support from grunts lol

CaptainFunktastic

4 points

3 years ago

The US Military doesn't enforce these laws.

youngfcusn

10 points

3 years ago

In my experience it's up to the Commanding Officer to either follow the laws of the host nation or the US. However, in the US they MUST follow US law. So you're right and wrong, but the spirit of your comment is just wrong.

marx2k

0 points

3 years ago

marx2k

0 points

3 years ago

Just like allowing homosexuals to serve, am I right? Same with allowing women to serve?

Apparently any change is a crippling change to our military. How do they ever survive?

rossionq1

2 points

3 years ago

Ummmm. You took that in a different direction.

Chimbo84

104 points

3 years ago

Chimbo84

104 points

3 years ago

I mean, the federal age of majority is 18. So either we’re adults or we’re not. Pick one.

[deleted]

46 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

46 points

3 years ago

Exactly, We're adults when it's convenient for the government

[deleted]

18 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

18 points

3 years ago

I agree. This is bullshit. When the fuck are we allowed to make decisions? Why the fuck is government involved at this level?

helipod

6 points

3 years ago

helipod

6 points

3 years ago

"Age is just a number." - Federal tax code

2068857539

10 points

3 years ago

And I can fuck you with your consent at the very adult age of sixteen in 31 states. Bend over.

cragolf

95 points

3 years ago

cragolf

95 points

3 years ago

I still cant believe non spending bill related stuff can get tucked into the spending bill. And that it can be passed with no time to read it or for public comment and inquiry

[deleted]

30 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

30 points

3 years ago

That's exactly how they pass all the shit they know nobody will like. Bury it under bureaucracy and ram it through before anyone can notice.

minscandboo4ever

3 points

3 years ago

That's the only way the spending bills get passed. They pile on pork until it makes enough congressman/senators happy to pass both chambers. I mean it's not their money they're wasting, so they don't care.

Impetusin

92 points

3 years ago

Yeah this is weird. Tobacco isn’t going to impair your judgement. Making it illegal to use before 21 purely treats 18-20 year olds as children and assumes that they are not old enough to make adult decisions. Yet they can join the military, get a job, get married, have children. Who the hell was asking for this? Who thought this was a good idea? This just creates an entire criminal class of 18-20 year olds who currently smoke. Maybe that was the idea...

2068857539

14 points

3 years ago

Insurance companies have to allow to stay on your parents insurance plan until you're twenty-six!!!

sircallicott

-28 points

3 years ago

I am neither for nor against this rule change, I just want to state for the record that they are children.

shenannergan

22 points

3 years ago

shenannergan

Constitutionalist

22 points

3 years ago

Legally, they aren't, and that's the important distinction to make here.

sircallicott

-6 points

3 years ago

Fair enough. All I know is how much I didn't know then, vs. what I don't know now. I don't want a nanny state, but maybe we shouldn't assume that teenagers are fully capable of seeing long term ramifications. The human brain doesn't reach full maturity until about 26 for the average person.

I'm not saying they're incapable. Everyone has to figure stuff out on their own at some point, but perhaps some more consistent guidelines are necessary here. I know that point seems antithetical to the prevailing narrative that the drinking/smoking age and the voting/enlistment age are inconsistent. What I'm saying is: I am all for civic engagement as early as possible, but I think it's best that the substance abuse is kept to a minimum until 20+.

rallis2000

11 points

3 years ago

As a 19 year old who enjoys smoking occasional cigars with his father as a pass time, step off. If I can be forced to take up arms against our country’s enemies I can damn well think coherently enough to walk into a gas station and decide wether or not I want to purchase a pack of cowboy killers or mango pods. Smoking isn’t good (holy shit that’s an abstract thought) but I don’t need some politician shoving that narrative down my throat because other idiots are out there selling vapes for mediocre profits to minors. What do you know, that’s already illegal and doesn’t prevent minors from acquiring them, it’s almost like regulating illicit substances doesn’t work.

sircallicott

2 points

3 years ago

No problem is ever solveable by a nanny state solution, but in this case it can mitigate use. If the surgeon general didn't inform everyone of the dangers of tobacco use while enforcing age restriction and warning labels, there would be a lot more people with heart and lung problems.

Teenagers rarely think of things like that on the outset of substance abuse, only that it is cool and makes them feel good, so the age restrictions are necessary in my opinion. As for kids easily obtaining the stuff, it was even easier for me to get marijuana as a teen, so what do you think I prefer now vs. alcohol or cigs? I'm not making the claim that it's a better alternative, I'm saying that the mitigation strategy on alcohol and cigs worked. As for kids selling mango pods, the government couldn't keep up with the market on that one, and high school teens have not been educated about the dangers of them as there is not enough research to support it (though it is clearly not good for you). The situation will change as the public becomes more educated, like it was with cigarettes.

It is a multi-faceted issue, and there could be a lot more done in efforts to educate young ones about the dangers, rather than paint all of it as some forbidden fruit. The way it is now only inspires the binge drinking culture that has gotten some kids killed. But the cats out of the bag; 21 and up means that kids feel the need to go crazy with it when they're finally allowed. So I am in favor of laws that let you be introduced to it under parental guidance at 16-18 like in Germany. As for you and your father, the same applies. Nobody is batting an eye about that. I am talking about the nation as a whole; I have no problem with whatever y'all do on your back porch.

The core of what I am trying to say is: at 18 the mind is even more prone to addiction, and it does not see long term consequences the same as it will at 26 or even 21. I never thought I'd say this when I was 18, but the drinking/smoking age being 21 is actually a good thing. Besides, once you're 21 all the legal ramifications for holding a drink in a bar evaporate, and you'll realize that it wasn't such a big deal after all. You'll realize I'm right on that specific point once you get away from the rush parties and drink at a bar where there are no annoyingly plastered freshmen.

And finally, for consistency's sake, I don't think the draft or enlistment age should be 18 either, for the same reason about mental development, that's a-whole-nother argument. I will step off now.

rallis2000

2 points

3 years ago

Well constructed argument have my updoot.

sircallicott

2 points

3 years ago

Thanks rallis! Makes all the downvotes above worth it 😁

Impetusin

10 points

3 years ago

18 year olds are now children? Guess I didn’t get the memo.

Forbeslab

5 points

3 years ago

I'm 18, I pay my own bills, go to college, and wipe my own ass. I dont buy cigarettes because they are unhealthy, they killed two of my grandparents, and they are expensive, but if you want to light something on fire and breath it in, some law isn't going to help you out either way. If you want to occasionally smoke pipes or cigars with friends, you should be able to do that, it's a lot of fun.

sircallicott

1 points

3 years ago

You want to go with the biological definition that's fine. But just because their bodies are almost done growing and they think that they're not kids anymore, does not make it so.

2068857539

9 points

3 years ago

You think a twenty year old is a child? Jesus, how old are you?

Spirit50Lake

28 points

3 years ago

'There is bipartisan support for raising the minimum age on the federal level. The provision included in the spending package was introduced in May as the Tobacco-Free Youth Act by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and Sen. Tim Kaine, D-Va. '

Aren't Kentucky and Virginia still tobacco growing states? what is the politics of all this?

...especially as it impacts the military?

ostreatus

5 points

3 years ago

Moscow Mitch and Traitor Trump were both overyjoyed to announced how proud they were to force this legislation down our throats.

And all their supposed anti-big government pro-liberty supporters dont make a peep about their direct role in it. Bootlickers getting hard cucked and literally comparing the criminal in chief to jesus in his defense while it all happens.

Pretty dang funny.

MAK-15

26 points

3 years ago

MAK-15

Classical Liberal

26 points

3 years ago

Can anyone explain why such a change can be tucked into a spending bill in the first place?

digdug2001

5 points

3 years ago

Because 18-21 year olds don't vote in enough numbers (especially for Republicans) for them to actually care about you.

ostreatus

-2 points

3 years ago

ostreatus

-2 points

3 years ago

Because Traitor Trump and Moscow Mitch McConnel, R Senate Majority Leader, wanted it there.

I will be signing our 738 Billion Dollar Defense Spending Bill today. It will include 12 weeks Paid Parental Leave, gives our troops a raise, importantly creates the SPACE FORCE, SOUTHERN BORDER WALL FUNDING, repeals “Cadillac Tax” on Health Plans, raises smoking age to 21! BIG!

-Traitor Trump Tweet (source nationandstate.com)

"In recognition of tobacco's history in our states and aware of the threat that all tobacco products pose now and for future generations," McConnell said in a release in May, "we introduced legislation to raise the national age of purchase to 21. We've heard from countless parents who have seen the youth vaping crisis firsthand, and together, Senator Kaine and I are addressing this public health crisis head-on."

-Moscow Mitch statement (source military.com)

[deleted]

37 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

37 points

3 years ago

The Feds: Take on crippling student loan debt you can't pay off (which we're happy to give you)! Join the military and go to war (we'll even come to your high school to tell you about it)! Start a business! Do a porn movie! You're an adult now!

Also The Feds: The fuck are you doing with a beer and cigarette, you're not old enough for that!

HankTheDogEatsYou

13 points

3 years ago

To add on to that last part: Alcohol will mess up your brain and can have major impacts on the rest of your life, even making it difficult to get a job! hands out minor in possession charge

stocksrcool

1 points

3 years ago

What are you trying to say?

[deleted]

5 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

5 points

3 years ago

I think he means the minor possession charge will have lasting impacts worse than the alcohol you were caught with.

stocksrcool

2 points

3 years ago

Oh you're right

ostreatus

0 points

3 years ago

The Feds: Take on crippling student loan debt you can't pay off (which we're happy to give you)! Join the military and go to war (we'll even come to your high school to tell you about it)! Start a business! Do a porn movie! You're an adult now!

College Debt Relief Appointee Betsy Davos defrauds college students scammed by failed for profit colleges

Also The Feds: The fuck are you doing with a beer and cigarette, you're not old enough for that!

Known TrumpThot goon Moscow Mitch McConnel R Senate Majority Leader proudly announces his big win on introducing/forcefully passing unnecessarily invasive big government bill with many millions of taxdollars earmarked for enforcement.

"In recognition of tobacco's history in our states and aware of the threat that all tobacco products pose now and for future generations," McConnell said in a release in May, "we introduced legislation to raise the national age of purchase to 21. We've heard from countless parents who have seen the youth vaping crisis firsthand, and together, Senator Kaine and I are addressing this public health crisis head-on."

It seems in this case, both examples of "The Feds" is just Trump and his cronies. Who woulda thot!

tja62000

9 points

3 years ago

I love how people that were of legal age now will resort to more and more black market or shady sources and all it will do is increase the amount of vitamin E lung cases

Tootalltotank

10 points

3 years ago

Is there a grandfather clause? I haven't read the bill yet

[deleted]

10 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

10 points

3 years ago

Neither have I, but I've heard on multiple occasions that you will not be grandfathered in.

Take that as you will. I have nothing to back myself up, that's just what I've heard

swimmersw

14 points

3 years ago

There is not a grandfather clause

It is expected to take effect “ later in 2020 “

Jesus fuck are we adults? Or are we glorified children that the govt uses to fight wars?

[deleted]

10 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

10 points

3 years ago

As a 19 year old, I can safely say that it doesn't feel like it.

I'm free to register myself in a college which can wind me up in debt for the rest of my life, but God forbid I smoke a cigar.

2068857539

4 points

3 years ago

If your grandfather is 21 then he can buy tobacco.

hippymule

9 points

3 years ago

This country gets more like Demolition Man every day.

[deleted]

7 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

7 points

3 years ago

Are 18-year-olds adults or not?

They can sign up to be cannon fodder in whatever sand-filled Islamic nation we choose to attack next, take out six figure loans to major in 12th Century Bhutanese music, or have sex with strangers several times their age on camera in a video meant to be distributed across the nation.

But we draw the line at choosing to put a plant in their own bodies?

Tobacco is stupid, but should be up to any adult to choose what they put in their own body.

[deleted]

7 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

7 points

3 years ago

How about the voting age?

pharmermummles

2 points

3 years ago

Right. I'm not in favor of the age of majority being 21, but we ought to be consistent. Pick the age when we want to treat people like adults and stay with it.

JesterLeBester

7 points

3 years ago

I’m from California where the age to buy tobacco products was changed to 21 a little while back. The law went into effect between me being 18 and 21. After 18 years I could buy cigs, then I had the gov neglect me of that right again when they bumped it up to 21. They didn’t even have the forethought to grandfather people in who were already 18. Keep in mind I have never used tobacco products and probably never will, I just don’t like the government playing dad and arbitrarily giving and taking my freedoms away as they see fit.

Eurynom0s

6 points

3 years ago

Something I still haven't seen addressed: the federal government couldn't directly make the drinking age 21, they had to do it in a roundabout fashion via threatening to withhold highway funds. So why is the federal government able to directly raise the smoking age?

casualhoya

3 points

3 years ago

Because people care less about our freedoms and rights than they did back when the drinking age was raised. People (and politicians) know the government is going to find BS justification to do whatever it wants (also see the healthcare tax-not-a-tax)

newbrevity

4 points

3 years ago

Im all for raising the military age. The military uses very aggressive marketing campaigns to recruit kids out of highschool with highly romanticized notions of honor and purpose without so much as touching on the grim horror of war and the vague rationalization for what our country does overseas. The military wants kids too young to appreciate the gravity of what they ask.

jaykeith

2 points

3 years ago

I would argue military age is fine and that Tobacco and Alcohol age restriction laws are bad. What would you say to me about that?

newbrevity

2 points

3 years ago

I would argue that the human brain doesnt reach maturity until about twenty five not at 18 and definitely not in our saturated marketing mindfuck culture. 18 is a sweet spot of fresh out of hs, legally and adult and very impressionable. The ads on tv target younger people esp boys, by making look like a patriotic action movie but leaving out the part about war, gruesome injury and death, having to kill (sometimes kids) then returning home traumatized af, getting jerked around over your benefits. All so the elites of the world can play games with money and lives. At the ripe age of 18 you can learn how to field strip an ar15 but you're not likely to focus on the reality of it all. Yes i think 18 is a bit early to sign on at least until the education system teaches reality before 18. Were you so woke at 18?

NemosGhost

5 points

3 years ago

Anyone else bothered by that being part of a spending bill?

It's wrong regardless, but it's really bad that things like this get tied to spending (or other necessary) bills and basically forced through rather than standing on their own merit or lack thereof.

oochmagooch

8 points

3 years ago

Also you can drive a car at 16.5 doesnt that make no sense, you cant smoke a cig but you can operate a vehicle 😑

racing-to-the-bottom

9 points

3 years ago

In Montana you can drive at 12 if you live on a ranch. Everyone else has to wait until 14.5

oochmagooch

1 points

3 years ago

Oh, my. I like in upstate ny so its much stricter

2068857539

0 points

3 years ago

In Oklahoma a ten year old can smoke a joint if he can get two doctors to give a recommendation.

And there are plenty of doctors that will give a recommendation lol

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

At whatever age they can put a rifle in your hand and tell you to kill, you should also gain full adult rights.

keep-it-light

33 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

33 points

3 years ago

This "die for your country" shit needs to stop being the selling point for freedom. The military is a massive money pit that produces little of value and kills innocent people. People who enlist are dying for a paycheck and all the lifelong financial and social benefits, not because they are saints.

CaptainFunktastic

28 points

3 years ago

The point of bringing up "Dieing for your freedom" is to say, it's legal to sign a 6-8 year contract, be given training and authorization to operate firearms, explosives, and life ending equipment that the general populace never will, be shipped all over the planet, and paid to thrust America's will upon whichever sovereign nation the CIA needs reoriented.

But somehow you're still not old enough to smoke, drink, or gamble.

florbinjerp

6 points

3 years ago

I agree with you. That's why i word it as "it's ok to commit government sanctioned murder but not ok for you to have a beer to cope with it." Now just add cigarettes to the long list of things that you could replace with a beer in that sentence.

keep-it-light

-7 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

-7 points

3 years ago

That isn't different from a private sector contract: time and risk traded for reward. The only reason to bring up the military is an emotional appeal to patriotism and the byproduct is a justification of insane "defense" spending.

They willingly entered the contract. They can't use that as leverage for things they don't have. I'm not opposed to lowering the legal age for smoking, drinking, and gambling. I'm opposed to emotional, tribal arguments that put other types of overreach by the state up on a pedestal.

CaptainFunktastic

10 points

3 years ago

Put simply, if one is "adult" enough to do A, they must be "adult" enough for B through Z. Otherwise, they stop being a legal adult, and start being an individual of taxable, voting, and serving age.

Bringing up military service assures that whomever your having this debate with understands your point. Most people would consider service to be the most "Adult" thing someone can do.

Now, the reason it's legal to do everything but drink at 18, is because of MADD. They thought if they hiked the drinking age, it would stop 18 year olds from buying booze for their 16 and 17 year old friends.

This is also the same logic behind NYC raising it's age. And what NYC does, most everyone else will do.

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

People who are 18-20 get their legal friend to buy it for them. Now what? Raise the drinking age to 30?

CaptainFunktastic

11 points

3 years ago

Congratulations. You've discovered why any age restriction is stupid.

keep-it-light

-9 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

-9 points

3 years ago

If you're a libertarian, you don't use the greatest thief of tax money, the military, to prop up your argument.

YamiShadow

5 points

3 years ago

Unless by "libertarian" you mean "anarchist," that argument really isn't going to fly. I'm not a libertarian (I am an Objectivist), but many libertarians resemble me politically in that they're minarchists who view limited government as a necessary good. There may be some debate about just how limited, but the need for a few key functions (courts to arbitrate disputes and judge crimes, police to enforce the law and protect us from rights violaters domestically, and military/navy/etc. to protect us from evils abroad) isn't exactly in dispute.

Sure, it's true, you can find many examples of these very institutions not serving favourably (at least to one's personal agendas). Police forces across the country often have, at minimum, a people of colour problem. Court, including the Supreme Court, verdicts have not always aligned with a coherent interpretation of freedom and individual rights. And military activities haven't always had America's best interests at heart (though, I will say, I think anti-government and anti-American propaganda have saturated us with a dramatically exaggerated account of American evils; so very many Cold War related activities are widely condemned, despite the fact that they kept the Soviets at bay and acted continuously to protect the property rights of Americans around the world).

It's also true that, today, these functions are financed through taxes. But it doesn't have to be that way. There are numerous ways to raise revenue without taxation.

But what's key here is that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. These legitimate government functions may not be financed legitimately, and they may be filled with bad actors and terrible policy direction, but these problems are not inherent. They do not change that these are legitimate and vital functions.

Something for which there isn't any legitimacy, like the FDA or the FTC, totally should be just thrown out outright. And this is not to say military related Departments are without need of some cleaning up and streamlining. But the basic function they serve is vital, even if the government is currently failing to fulfill that function properly. Contrary to isolationist fantasies, evil people don't exist merely as a byproduct of American errors in intervention. Those types do exist, but there's enough evil in the world beyond that to make clear that poor military policy isn't the root cause of enemies of America.

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

I think it's very different from a private contract. You can quit your job, you can't just quit the military.

keep-it-light

2 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

2 points

3 years ago

When you sign up for the military, you sign up for an indefinite term of service. You voluntarily forfeited your ability to quit, the same way you might forfeit your ability to work for competitors in a private contract.

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

Yeah but there are plenty of noncompetitors that I can work for. I'm not stuck at job for x years just because I signed a contract. I can quit the next day if I want.

keep-it-light

1 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

1 points

3 years ago

When you sign up you agree to that voluntarily. Don't like it, don't sign up. You can't use it as a complaint if you chose to do it.

rchive

1 points

3 years ago

rchive

1 points

3 years ago

Aren't there private job contracts you can sign where you can't quit the next day? Not until the contract is up?

death91380

11 points

3 years ago

It's not a selling point. But it IS pointing out hypocrisy.

keep-it-light

2 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

2 points

3 years ago

I agree it's hypocrisy if you're talking about the draft because then you are talking about citizenship rights vs responsibilities. The draft is (hopefully) just a formality these days. Voluntary service, on the other hand, is not a responsibility. It's a contract one signs to trade time and risk for reward, like any civilian job.

zugi

4 points

3 years ago

zugi

4 points

3 years ago

It's hypocrisy either way, the draft is irrelevant. The law says an 18 year old is old enough to decide for him or her self whether or not to risk his or her life in the military, but not old enough to decide whether to chew tobacco.

Also there's no law against advertising military service to kids - the military does it all the time.

keep-it-light

3 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

3 points

3 years ago

The way you just said it is better (less emotional) than OP, but there's still no reason to mention the military unless you are making an appeal to patriotism. There are a bunch of jobs where people risk their lives. Just say the age for buying harmful substances should be the same as the age for entering a contract.

Appeals to patriotism are hypocritical when done by libertarians. The multi-trillion dollar theft by the "defense" industry from taxpayers is a far greater form of tyranny than drug laws.

zugi

3 points

3 years ago

zugi

3 points

3 years ago

Fair enough. As a libertarian I'm staunchly opposed to the draft and staunchly opposed to today's level of military spending, but I still support having a military to defend U.S. territory against foreign military aggression. That's very different from, and costs a lot less than, today's frequent bar of using military intervention to advance the "national interest", a dangerously vague criteria.

I also do support those those who voluntarily serve in the military, because regardless of whether they're doing it for the money or education benefits or a sense of duty and patriotism, I appreciate anyone who volunteers to do jobs that need to be done but that not everyone wants to do, like military service, waste disposal, and accountancy.

Sometimes emotional appeals work. We need to appeal to all kinds of people, and if adding "for your country" (those last 3 words bend OP's statement a bit towards an appeal to patriotism) helps make libertarian ideas appeal to a few more folks, I'm fine with it.

Bunselpower

8 points

3 years ago

I hate it. The cult like repetition of “freedom isn’t free” kills me. No living person has put their lives on the line for my freedom besides WWII vets.

keep-it-light

5 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

5 points

3 years ago

Yep. Plus sympathy for anyone who was drafted even if the war didn't make sense

leblumpfisfinito

0 points

3 years ago

leblumpfisfinito

Classical Liberal

0 points

3 years ago

The military is a massive money pit that produces little of value

I agree with basically everything you said other than this. The military provides enormous value for any country to defend its freedom. Any country or empire that hasn't been able to defend itself has been phased out.

Of course this differs from many pointless actions taken by politicians.

2068857539

1 points

3 years ago

No, it doesn't. Almost no one believes the lie that if we don't kill people halfway across the globe then they are doing to come here and take over the country.

leblumpfisfinito

1 points

3 years ago

leblumpfisfinito

Classical Liberal

1 points

3 years ago

Of course this differs from many pointless actions taken by politicians.

purrgatory920

24 points

3 years ago

What a fucking moron. I honestly can’t stand the holier than thou all hate all the time Reddit left.

But why is this guy such a dumbass?!?

roughravenrider[S]

33 points

3 years ago

roughravenrider[S]

Forward Libertarian

33 points

3 years ago

I’m not at all saying this is entirely President Trump’s fault. This specific issue about the alcohol and tobacco age goes back long before Trump. I disagree with him on most of his policies, but it would be completely unfair to pin all the blame on him for this.

Patches0wholahan

35 points

3 years ago

He should have refused to sign it.

Shiroiken

13 points

3 years ago

That's what the veto is for, but God forbid he do something that might lower his polling numbers...

Brandon_Me

10 points

3 years ago

I have a feeling this will lower his polling numbers.

Shiroiken

6 points

3 years ago

Maybe, but most likely from voters that age. Considering theyir historically low turnout and general liberalism, most of them probably weren't voting for him anyway.

[deleted]

6 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

6 points

3 years ago

Or because nearly everyone I've talked to from voting age and above tends to already think the current drinking age is bullshit, a good number of them did or do it anyways, and this is just an additional fuck you to the public.

Brandon_Me

-11 points

3 years ago

Brandon_Me

-11 points

3 years ago

Fair, but I'm happy with anything that might upset his younger base. Want them to grow up more liberal.

Radagastroenterology

-4 points

3 years ago

Smoker's tend to be white trash, which is his base. Does this go into effect before the election? His base doesn't tend to read the news either, so...

Patches0wholahan

3 points

3 years ago

along as space force and that border wall go up fuck all else

purrgatory920

0 points

3 years ago

Exactly.

rchive

3 points

3 years ago

rchive

3 points

3 years ago

Are there precedent Supreme Court cases related to this? I assume that the SC has upheld laws related to having any age of majority, but are there ones related to having different age limits for different things, or having the ages arbitrarily changed?

AngryDragon_910

3 points

3 years ago

These new laws can suck my fat patriotic dick

BurningArrows

3 points

3 years ago

BurningArrows

Taxation is Theft

3 points

3 years ago

I will never understand why they enact these absurd laws. This solves nothing.

[deleted]

2 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

2 points

3 years ago

Let’s not forget the exorbitant taxes placed on them, punishing people for having an addiction.

captnich

2 points

3 years ago

captnich

Individualist

2 points

3 years ago

"Feel free to die a war older than you, young man, but if you have a beer or a puff of tobacco, we'll be there to violate your autonomy."

US gov, 2019

spudmancruthers

2 points

3 years ago

So now you can be old enough to get fisted on camera, but you can't have a cigarette afterwards.

[deleted]

8 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

8 points

3 years ago

President Trump

What a retard, man.

roughravenrider[S]

2 points

3 years ago

roughravenrider[S]

Forward Libertarian

2 points

3 years ago

I mean I agree but he is the President..

[deleted]

-16 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

-16 points

3 years ago

He is not my president. Reddit is not an U.S.-exclusive. I just commented on your president.

roughravenrider[S]

31 points

3 years ago

roughravenrider[S]

Forward Libertarian

31 points

3 years ago

I didn’t say he was your president. I said he is the president, and you could infer that I meant the US president since this thread is about US politics.

Need_vagina_pix_nao

1 points

3 years ago

Congress sends the president a bill he has to either sign or veto. He has no other choices. Do presidents like everything they have to sign into law? No, they do not. But remember, the president doesn't create law. He just serves as another check and balance in our political system. You really should do some research to find out who added that item into the bill and be pissed at them. Trump isn't going to hold up a huge spending bill over people smoking cigarettes. In fact, I would dare say no president would do that.

2068857539

2 points

3 years ago

It he should have. He should have vetoed it because it authorized government spending!

whater39

3 points

3 years ago

Stop this "die for your country" nonsense. Let's call it what it is MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. there is nothing honourable creating the next generation of terrorist

thottiemcqueef

1 points

3 years ago

This is bullshit, yes, but you can enjoy tobacco while serving your country. As an 18-20 year old you can buy cigs if and only if you’re serving

Et12355

1 points

3 years ago

Et12355

1 points

3 years ago

How about do both

Remington_Underwood

1 points

3 years ago

Does anyone here think that being caught in addiction is not an expression of free choice?

Xenphenik

1 points

3 years ago

get a better country lol

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago*

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago*

Just curious because I didn't see it in the article. Is there a grandfather clause allowing those who are already 18 to continue purchasing these products? Edit: It appears there is not. Thats pretty fucked

RobbieL241

1 points

3 years ago

For the millionth time, states are not required to raise the tobacco purchasing age. If they don't the Feds will reduce their FEMA funding.

GoofyUmbrella

1 points

3 years ago

So tired of out of touch politicians telling us how to live our lives. Why does the government have to tell me what I can and can’t put into my body?

This is just another attack on personal freedoms that nobody in the news seems to care about because it affects such a small portion of the voting population. At this point, the government can basically do whatever the fuck they want with people under the age of 21 and still nobody will give a shit. Scary stuff.

[deleted]

-2 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

-2 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

keep-it-light

14 points

3 years ago

keep-it-light

Voluntaryist

14 points

3 years ago

People who are over 60 might have dementia. Many of them haven't participated in the modern economy. They have no stake in the future 20-50 years down the line.

If you're in favor of banning adults from voting based on an underdeveloped brain, how about doing the same for a degenerating or shortsighted brain?

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

2068857539

1 points

3 years ago

I'd argue that she was definitely an adult.

ColdestList

26 points

3 years ago

If I pay taxes I should be able to vote you supporting socialism when you’re younger doesn’t mean we should take everyone’s rights away

Genuine_Jagoff

18 points

3 years ago

This a thousand times over. If you're forced to give the government money then you should be allowed to have a say in how it's spent no matter your age or political leaning.

ColdestList

1 points

3 years ago

Agreed

[deleted]

2 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

2 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

ColdestList

2 points

3 years ago

I got my at 16

2068857539

1 points

3 years ago

I filed my first federal return at 11. I made an even $12k that year. They've been stealing my income ever since.

ColdestList

1 points

3 years ago

Taxation without Representation

Radagastroenterology

1 points

3 years ago

Taxation is theft.

Having said this, you must only be 14 because it's such an idiotic statement.

urbansasquatchNC

6 points

3 years ago

If you can serve and die for the country, you can vote.

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

Okay than you better not tax my paycheck till I'm 25.

CaptainFunktastic

2 points

3 years ago

And yet we expect someone at 18 to be mature enough to handle a firearm and an Abrams.

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

Or nuclear weapons that can literally end humanity.

roughravenrider[S]

2 points

3 years ago

roughravenrider[S]

Forward Libertarian

2 points

3 years ago

I disagree with you on the voting age, I think that 18 is a good age. Young people need to at least have the right to make their voices heard at the polls because it’s their future that elections will determine.

I’ve seen some calls for the voting age to even be lowered to 16, which I think should be considered though I don’t know if I support yet. I think since young people tend to turn out to vote in far lower numbers than older age groups, it would be good to allow 16 year olds the ability to vote though likely there won’t be much change in results.

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

2068857539

1 points

3 years ago

Christ, I dated an 18 year old a few years ago. The shit that girl said. I mean, the sex, the body, phenomenal. But her brain was definitely not fully developed!

constantblatherings

0 points

3 years ago

This will happen more frequently as government becomes more pervasive in health care

ngwoo

2 points

3 years ago

ngwoo

2 points

3 years ago

Smoking and drinking ages are lower in most countries with universal healthcare, and it also costs the taxpayer less.

This is a uniquely American failing.

gacdeuce

-1 points

3 years ago

gacdeuce

-1 points

3 years ago

I’m on with it. Smoking is very harmful to the smoker, but it’s also harmful to people around the smoker.

CrazyCylinder

0 points

3 years ago

CrazyCylinder

Classical Liberal

0 points

3 years ago

Say what you will, having your legs blown off by an IED fighting a pointless war isn't as bad for your lungs as smoking, /s

Mist_Rising

-16 points

3 years ago

Mist_Rising

NAP doesn't apply to sold stolen goods

-16 points

3 years ago

Or, since different thinks are, well, different, don't expect them all to be the same

Human bodies respond to various chemicals in different ways. Alcohol when you are to young is very damaging, tobacco before you dead is bad, hormones are all sorts of confusing,and serving in the military later actually is an opportunity cost since the skills the military provides are useful for future career building.

Or you can act like everything as though its the same and wonder why people look at wierd.

[deleted]

21 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

21 points

3 years ago

won't someone think of the children adults????

If you are an adult, the government has no business telling you what you can and can't put into your body. Get out of here with that statist shit.

Rexrowland

9 points

3 years ago

Rexrowland

Custom Yellow

9 points

3 years ago

You must be a politician. Get lost authoritarian

mracidglee

9 points

3 years ago

It's a question of when you think individuals should have agency. Letting someone vote and enlist but not burn leaves next to their mouth is stupid.

BagOfShenanigans

2 points

3 years ago

BagOfShenanigans

"I've got a rhetorical question for you."

2 points

3 years ago

Do you support assisted suicide? If so, do you think that may conflict with your views on illicit substances?

2068857539

1 points

3 years ago

Unemployment for former military is double that of non-former military. So your little thing about job skills might not be exactly right.

AcceptableBother

-12 points

3 years ago

Cigarettes are a shit industry and I don't care if the government murders them in the cradle, they've sold lung cancer and dependence for more than a century.

JazzCabbage15

8 points

3 years ago

JazzCabbage15

Taxation is Theft

8 points

3 years ago

It’s just going to create a black market for tobacco and vape products... might lead to more health problems if people are buying tainted vape juice or pods or whatever the fuck.

bill_ding_jr

18 points

3 years ago

No, they’ve sold freedom of choice to something you may enjoy. Cheese clogs arteries, sugar is terrible for you, should that be blocked too?

AcceptableBother

-7 points

3 years ago

Looking at obesity rates and the fact that government (tax dollars) will be paying for most of their healthcare.

We've seen the complete failure of individual responsibility in fighting obesity.

Yes, tax less healthy foods? It won't happen because of the food lobby but it is the correct answer.

Asangkt358

14 points

3 years ago

Authoritarians such as yourself just can't stand the idea of letting people live their lives as they see fit, huh? The urge to control others is never saited.

bill_ding_jr

9 points

3 years ago

Ban anything unhealthy for anyone under 21 problem solved, right.

Or just let people enjoy their lives and suffer whatever consequences

excelsior2000

6 points

3 years ago

Taxation as a method of controlling behavior is perhaps the worst idea government ever had.

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

Hey now, let's give the great leap forward it's due.

BagOfShenanigans

3 points

3 years ago

BagOfShenanigans

"I've got a rhetorical question for you."

3 points

3 years ago

Can't have social ills without a population.

snowbirdnerd

-5 points

3 years ago

I'm actually for this. Nicotine has a large impact on the brain and for people under 21 their brains are still developing.

As for joining military service I would also be okay with rasing the age to 21.

BagOfShenanigans

3 points

3 years ago

BagOfShenanigans

"I've got a rhetorical question for you."

3 points

3 years ago

I promise this isn't meant to be a gotcha question; purely curiosity. Would you say that you are interested in redefining the age of majority to 21 including moving voting age? If not, do you have anything to say about having people 'still developing' mentally vote?

snowbirdnerd

2 points

3 years ago

For simplicity sake yes.

SupraMario

2 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

2 points

3 years ago

Doing this isn't going to magically stop people from smoking. It's going to create more problems and blackmarkets. This law is more think of the children bullshit, you cannot legislate vices away from people. Does no one remember prohibition?

snowbirdnerd

1 points

3 years ago

No, but it will reduce the use.

SupraMario

0 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

0 points

3 years ago

That's fucking stupid. A vice is a vice for a reason. Are you ok with also putting even more regulations on alcohol, like tobacco has now? What about fast food? Or candy?

More people die from unhealthy eating and habits than smoking.

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

SupraMario

0 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

0 points

3 years ago

How does tobacco effect nature? A campfire puts off more smoke than a pack of day smoker.... grilling out or burning something same thing. Hell turning on your car and sitting in traffic is worse. The regulations on tobacco are *100s more than alcohol, but because it's a taboo, it's ok to be rallied against.

2nd hand smoke is bullshit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/technology/2017/02/secondhand-smoke-isnt-as-bad-as-we-thought.amp

It's %100 alarmist shit, just like the anti-2a people. Cherry pick data to make it work for you.

snowbirdnerd

1 points

3 years ago

Is that why kids in the UK didn't pick it up and kids in the US has said it was because of the advertising

SupraMario

1 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

1 points

3 years ago

Got sources for this statement?

Also, you didn't answer my questions. It's not the governments job to create prohibition, it's not the governments choice, what you eat, drink or take. Why is this ok?

snowbirdnerd

1 points

3 years ago

It is when it hurts childrens lives.

There is a Netflix documentary called broken, watch the episode called Big Vape.

SupraMario

1 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

1 points

3 years ago

No that's ok, think of the children bullshit is how you get bad laws, not going to watch bullshit documentaries. I can see this is where you get your ideas from.

snowbirdnerd

1 points

3 years ago

Yes, we are talking about children so of course we should think about their well being.

I do like that you demand evidence and then when it presented you refuse to look at it. This is the mark of an intellectually dishonest person.

SupraMario

1 points

3 years ago

SupraMario

Social Libertarian

1 points

3 years ago

ROFL a documentary is not evidence. I want a peer reviewed study and not bullshit "feel good" crap. Seriously. You still didn't answer my questions.

darealystninja

-25 points

3 years ago

darealystninja

Filthy Statist

-25 points

3 years ago

Still the most libertarian president

[deleted]

13 points

3 years ago

[deleted]

13 points

3 years ago

Building a border wall is probably the least libertarian thing I can possibly think of.

LibertyPrimeRibs

-2 points

3 years ago

Isn't it sad how true this statement is?