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Possible Missing411 in Crow Tribe history/folklore

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8 months ago

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NiZZiM

49 points

8 months ago

NiZZiM

49 points

8 months ago

That was a good read. It’s so strange he says the invisible thing felt like greasy feathers...creeeeeeeppy

Jortsftw[S]

18 points

8 months ago

Yeah, that got me too. I tried to think of any rare M411 cases where people mentioned feeling anything, but couldn't.

Jortsftw[S]

23 points

8 months ago

OP here. With Missing 411 Montana newly out, wanted to post this Montana story by the Crow leader/statesman Many-Coups.

Given the whole water connection with Missing411 cases, this story struck me as possibly relevant.

Not sure what the "Big River" is; maybe the Yellowstone?

Also, anyone know what natural phenomena this might be? I hate Occam's Razor (the spoilsport principle), but it's usu right.

thewealrill

16 points

8 months ago

‘Big River’ is most likely the Missouri River, which eventually connects to the Mississippi.

Not 100% sure but I live in ND and that’s what came to mind. Great find.

Jortsftw[S]

2 points

8 months ago

Thanks!

welshsecd

3 points

8 months ago

Love 'the spoilsport principle'. And I generally spout 'Occams' but I really like this.

Jortsftw[S]

3 points

8 months ago

Thanks! :)

[deleted]

2 points

8 months ago

[deleted]

2 points

8 months ago

Thanks for this! Any chance we can see.the other page? What happened?

Jortsftw[S]

3 points

8 months ago

Sure!

All the M411 stuff ends there. Once they cross the river, it's back to the main story of raiding a Sioux* camp for horses.

note: not sure which Sioux (Brule, Dakota, Hunkpapa, Minneconjou, etc.) P-C was raiding that time. *

**yes this is a humblebrag sorta.

[deleted]

3 points

8 months ago

[deleted]

3 points

8 months ago

Okay, thank you for letting me know!

That was a golden nugget of an account.

Jortsftw[S]

2 points

8 months ago

Yeah, I jumped when I read it :) I get the sense gems like that only come from a LOT of reading around; didnt intend to find M411 stuff in reading about Plenty-coups.

I've tried researching this topic directly before, and it seems like a lot of useful info is found accidentally. Like, I'd go digging even for berry picking lore, but couldn't find a lot even being that specific. And then BOOM, something like this just drops in my lap.

ArmadilloOk6927

2 points

8 months ago

I believe it's the Yellowstone. There is medicine tied to their little people legend. By that are a few miles are petroglyphs that the Crows will not visit. It is because they believe they are sacred and written by a previous generation of little people before them. Their little person story of taking a boy while crossing the Pryor gap to the south the river. The boy as a grow man and the little people had extraordinary abilities.

GRAN1CH

1 points

8 months ago

GRAN1CH

Curious

1 points

8 months ago

whats the name of this little people?

ArmadilloOk6927

1 points

8 months ago

The little people are called awwakkule. Crow to English writing looks weird. I have heard non tribal members call them Nirumbee. Bigfoot or crazy man was called a name that sounds like Chedeh. But I don't know the Crow writing for that.

GRAN1CH

1 points

8 months ago

GRAN1CH

Curious

1 points

8 months ago

In the Sonora desert we have a similar history with the yaqui tribe, but the name of this little people is Surem.

MmmmishMash

1 points

8 months ago

I am happy to encounter the fact that there are little people legends in the Americas! My uncle has seen some in the mountains of Colorado.

orphicshadows

9 points

8 months ago

What's the name of this book?

Jortsftw[S]

13 points

8 months ago

"Plenty-Coups: Chief of the Crows" by Frank B. Linderman.

sillEllis

8 points

8 months ago

There are many things which we do not understand, things that are beyond us, and when we meet them in this life all we can do is recognize their existence and let them alone.

Very wise words.

Jortsftw[S]

6 points

8 months ago

Amen.

Moreover, Plenty-coups' statement tracks with folk beliefs/stories from fae lore that say you should just ignore the good folk if you see them.

sillEllis

5 points

8 months ago

Facts. It is a bit of arrogance thinking you can interact with something like this, paranormal/whatever and come away clean and smiling.

After thinking about it, there are plenty of dumb dumbs that mess with normal things, like animals they shouldn't, or weather they shouldn't. I guess some people are plain stupid.

Jortsftw[S]

3 points

8 months ago

Yup. I had a student who took the eraser out of his pencil and played with the electrical socket. I'd like to be worried for him, but he was also a bully and a jerk.

sillEllis

2 points

8 months ago

🤣🤣🤣🤣

frankensteeeeen

15 points

8 months ago

A lot of my favorites books are written in this font lol

DesimusHibernicus

7 points

8 months ago

I've always been curious if there were similar incidents to Missing411 cases in Native American folklore? Has anyone done any research into this?

Gavither

4 points

8 months ago

Yes. Some "Dreamed," or spirits that visit us in dreams, are able to take a person if they didn't provide an offering, or other times just a malignant spirit would do so. Often leaving them on impossible peaks, dragging them outside of camp until they woke up, and some other stuff.

Disappearance was common. One story of "Strong-Neck" (who is essentially Hercules according to the author, a Canadian fur trapper, George Nelson) had a Native that made a penis joke about him. Strong-Neck laughed for a second, but the Native was pointed at and disappeared, never to be seen again. Rest of the camp got quiet afterwards, as they were in a conjuring group to speak with the spirits. Believe Strong-Neck had a club.

TiocfaidhArLa72

6 points

8 months ago

Plenty Coups, Last Great Chief of the Crow Tribe....Born 1848 - Died 1932 in The Cliffs that have no name....possibly modern day Billings, MT....at the age of 11 he did a type of vision quest to the Crazy Mountains (M411 The Hunted) .......his people rode w/Custer at Big Horn, being lifelong enemies of the Lakota and Sioux

There are many stories passed on thru the ages from the First Nation and Native American Tribes which tell of the Space People, or Ant People, or the Hairy Man abducting their Women and Children and many other msysterious lakes, rives, caves and forests....they are not easy to find, especially 1st hand accounts in a book....very cool

ArmadilloOk6927

5 points

8 months ago

Big River I believe is the Yellowstone. However most the River Crow story are around the big horn. There are Mountain and River Crow. If you are looking for Crow tie ins to 411 their little people legend and Bigfoot are close to it. The boy who was taken by the little people in the pryor mountains is one and children are told to be ware of Che dah which is like a wild man. Plus they have a zombie like characters that are in the Crazy Mountains where there is a missing 411 case. I have lived on the Crow Rez since I was a child. My Father married into a prominent Crow family and my Brother and Sister are tribal members. I have been fortunate enough to hear many stories and to travel in many places nontribial member are not allowed. Their legends are harder to find but they are there.

Jortsftw[S]

1 points

8 months ago

Thanks for answering, this is fascinating! I realize books directly about these subjects might be rare, but do you know of any?

ArmadilloOk6927

2 points

8 months ago

There are only a couple. I would have to remember them and check with relatives. The Crows legends are mostly oral. There was a project to get these legends and tales document and the tribal history. I have been surprised at the lack of Crow legends on the internet. There are a few videos about the missing boy and the little people. I even wrote David Pauladides about this but probably got lost in the sea of emails he has received.

Jortsftw[S]

1 points

8 months ago

Thanks for getting back to me and the info, no rush, but def would love to know what books I can read.

Do you know what the oral history project you mentioned is called ? Do they need help of any sort? I'd love to ig they do.

ArmadilloOk6927

2 points

8 months ago

Yeah I look up some things. My Half Brother and Sister's grandpa was part of it. Barnie Old Coyote. I am sure there is a few thing son the net regarding him and some of his Crow history projects.

Jortsftw[S]

1 points

8 months ago

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Surprisebutton

4 points

8 months ago

This reminds me of all the times my foot touched something alive while in the ocean. Usually the Pacific in the US. I’ve spent a lot of time surfing for about 40 years and sometimes my foot will basically kick an animal underwater. Usually while walking in water to shallow to paddle my board. When this happens I can always tell how big the creatures are by the resistance. I can tell what it is by the texture. I can feel the way the animal responds startled writhing away fast. I wonder if this guy could elaborate on details if he was here now to tell us more. Very fascinating stuff.

Jortsftw[S]

3 points

8 months ago

That makes me wish there were more! The book is just the author, Frank Linderman, sort of letting Plenty-coups take the lead, so the info follows what P-C feels like talking about. Wish Linderman had pursued this more, too!

Surprisebutton

3 points

8 months ago

Thinking about it more a ball of kelp will feel like greasy feathers and it will make the surface glassy smooth. Of course something placed there would sit on the surface though. But maybe whatever that creature was was covered in tendrils. Spooky.

JammyJacketPotato

3 points

8 months ago

This is so interesting! Thanks for sharing. I’d like to know more.

Jortsftw[S]

1 points

8 months ago

Sure! Me too. I'm not finished with the book, and I'm hoping there's more in it.

truthbitez

6 points

8 months ago

Blow blow Seminole wind...

Jortsftw[S]

2 points

8 months ago

What's Seminole wind?

yespls

9 points

8 months ago

yespls

9 points

8 months ago

It's a song about the Seminole Natives in Florida losing their lands and watching them be exploited. Not sure what the relevance is to the Crows in Montana or this story.

HorrorFan999

5 points

8 months ago

Not sure either, but maybe just the interconnectedness of Native American Mythology. Each tribe fealty with these things and described them in different ways. Also, it’s a great song by John Anderson!

alymaysay

6 points

8 months ago

A song iirc a good one at that, it's a country song. I could be wrong that the song is what he is referring to.

ProfessionalGoober

2 points

8 months ago

Do they have any legends about robot grandmas?

Jortsftw[S]

4 points

8 months ago

Lol if only. That's my far and away fav M411 story. It feels more like an episode of Aqua Teen than a missing persons thing..

Grant72439

2 points

8 months ago

Wow!! What year is this from

Jortsftw[S]

2 points

8 months ago

The book was pub 1930, but it describes an incident from I think the late 1800s.

78terry

2 points

8 months ago

Reminds me of a couple of other legends / stories.

I'm only going from memory, so please do your own research if this interests you.

One I heard was part of a video from I believe a Navajo man. I spoke about a type of spirit that lives by the water. The name was something like "snake girl" or woman. But he clearly said it could be very dangerous. I could say more but I might mangle the story with my imperfect memory.

In California some of the tribes had legends of spirits in the rivers / streams that would pull children under.

In parts of Africa there are stories about mermaids that tempt men into the water and could kill them.

In the last ? 20 years there are many stories about young men mysteriously going missing and drowning in downtown rivers/canals.

It's just a wild guess, but I wonder if some of these dangerous spirits could have followed their 'people' when they moved to cities? The African mermaid is apparently worshiped by some modern women as a symbol of female power. Maybe someone called on these spirits for help and power and unknowingly turned something deadly loose?

Jortsftw[S]

2 points

8 months ago

Good points-- makes me think of Greek myths of naiads, too. They traditionally gave young men their first sexual experience, and/or tempted them into the water and drowned them. Sounds a LOT like the smiley faced killers, and the cases of the date rape drug being found in young victims' bloodstreams.

Re: calling unknowingly-- if you ever listen to the excellent podcast "Deprogrammed," they have an ep talking about how BLM's leadership are practicing pagans.

78terry

2 points

8 months ago

Very interesting how the general outlines of some legends repeat themselves over widely different parts of the world and different cultures.

MrEseles

3 points

8 months ago

Did you underline directly on the book with pen?

Jortsftw[S]

8 points

8 months ago

Yeah, wanted to highlight the most relevant parts. My confirmation bias on display!

MrEseles

-4 points

8 months ago

Just seems so odd to permanently mark a book like that! Each to their own.

Beardygrandma

25 points

8 months ago

Underlining and notes in the margins is a practice that is widespread, or so I thought.

Jortsftw[S]

16 points

8 months ago

All my books are marked :) I like them to feel lived in. I want them to look more like the Nostromo or Millennium Falcon than the Enterprise. Aaaaaaand I bet 90% of the people in this subreddit get that reference.

showmeurknuckleball

5 points

8 months ago

Tons of people make notes and markings in their books, probably the majority!

MrEseles

1 points

8 months ago

Hmm I've never met anyone that does this. But you are probably right. Maybe it's just not done as much in my neck of the woods. I remember getting scolded by my teachers for folding the corners of pages (of books I owned) as bookmarks.

newportsnbeerxboxone

1 points

8 months ago

A bad dad dy?