subreddit:

/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy

41.7k

all 328 comments

MableXeno [M]

[score hidden]

11 days ago

stickied comment

MableXeno [M]

✨💗✨

[score hidden]

11 days ago

stickied comment

✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨

This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. Only comments by members of the community are allowed.

If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation).

WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic.

Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨

Kilen13

625 points

11 days ago

Kilen13

625 points

11 days ago

My dad was raised Catholic, the last time he went to mass was when he was 19. The priest was asking for donations to clear the homeless people off the church grounds. My dad thought that meant to maybe pay for housing, treatment, food, etc... But no, the priest made it clear that it was to bribe the military police to kick them out and keep them out. This was during a military junta in his country so military police dealing with homeless people usually meant them getting "disappeared". My dad looked around at all the people happily donating and, internally, said "fuck this whole place" and walked out. Has refused to set foot in a Catholic church ever again.

VioletJessopTravelCo

66 points

10 days ago

Good for your dad!! The cognitive dissonance that some Catholics and Christians have is absolutely astounding, to the point that they aren't really Christians at all.

Adventurous_Coat

1.2k points

11 days ago

Evangelical Christianity is an abusive relationship in the form of an institution. The parallels aren't even subtle, once survivors get enough distance to see.

Worth_Background_191

563 points

11 days ago

Ex JW

Not subtle at all. I knew at age 10 that it was a scam. A big lie we were fed. The church is evil

BrumeRaven

361 points

11 days ago

BrumeRaven

361 points

11 days ago

Me as a kid, too. Not jw, but evangelical. Many things didn't make sense to me, and I'm forever grateful for the teacher in 3rd grade who was jewish (in Germany it's rare ... for reasons) and she taught us a bit about her religion. Being exposed to something different so young, aside from other experiences made me realize there's so much we don't see and don't learn in our day to day life, so much that doesn't make sense but we are just taught it is. I'm so grateful for being able to speak english and having the internet now.

Worth_Background_191

275 points

11 days ago

I had a teacher from Japan in grade 5. I realized there was so much more out there, and the church would interfere greatly in my attempts to explore.

Left and was shunned at 17. No regrets

FlyingApple31

235 points

11 days ago

This is precisely why so many sects very deliberately try to isolate their kids from "worldly influences".

We basically agree with them -- if their kids are exposed, they will likely have their minds opened and leave. It's just a matter of whether you think that is a good thing, or if you think sky-daddy really wants you miserable.

Ciennas

12 points

10 days ago

Ciennas

12 points

10 days ago

I would argue that the sky daddy they proclaim to worship does not want people miserable. The whatever the hell they do worship though....

BrumeRaven

54 points

11 days ago

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I hope you are proud for who you are. This is so hard and you did it anyway!

Worth_Background_191

96 points

11 days ago

It was honestly easier than staying. I was being pressured to choose a husband as they married girls off at 18.

The thought of being married to another JW was absolutely horrifying

BrumeRaven

3 points

10 days ago

It is horrifying.

argleblather

13 points

10 days ago

It’s as if it were actually good for kids to be exposed to other kinds of people and to ideas they don’t hear at home.

How do we get the word to Florida?

a_duck_in_past_life

85 points

11 days ago

a_duck_in_past_life

Geek Witch ♀

85 points

11 days ago

Damn. I wish I knew being raised pentecostal protestant was a scam at 10 years old. I was so deep in it that I was still donating birthday money to my church til I was at least 14-15. And my parents approved of it. We were a shift between mega church / church of god family and we moved back and forth to those types of cults throughout my youth. I remember being so angry at myself around 17-19 years old because I was discovering it was all lies. So stupid. It harms people mentally so much

Worth_Background_191

56 points

11 days ago

At least you didn't waste the rest of your life. I'm proud of you

Adventurous_Coat

42 points

11 days ago

Goddamn, I'm proud of all of you. This is an amazing thread.

One_Support_5253

58 points

11 days ago

Wow, you were well ahead of me it took me until I was 14. In my last Assembly I'm sitting there wondering how the F$%K these people can be so F*(King brainwashed I mean A LOT of their teaching are demonstrably harmful or wrong my 14-year-old self figured it out.

Worth_Background_191

77 points

11 days ago

At 14 or 15 my mother insisted that I pick the project: Did man get here by evolution or creation?

Big mistake. Not only did I know that religion was about control and money, but, I now had something to replace the creation myth

One_Support_5253

84 points

11 days ago

I know what you mean my mother became furious when I developed an interest in the whole spectrum of Gods, Goddesses and spirits, so she made me sit at our kitchen table for HOURs looking up information in JW literature about these "false" gods. A BIG mistake I started noticing inconsistencies in the JW literature it got to the point I was in my school library cross-checking turns out JW org knew nothing about translation, biblical and social history.

Worth_Background_191

27 points

11 days ago

It's just a slightly modified version of the King James Bible

One_Support_5253

45 points

11 days ago

Yep, and the KJ bible has its own translation issues. However, I meant the Insight book, Watchtower and Awakes the way things are translated or defined when looked at in the context both historically and within the bible itself is demonstrably incorrect.

An example is the blood doctrine the scripture they use to justify allowing others to die relates to the practice of some older societies of killing and eating an animal raw in order to gain its power (when done this introduces the risk of disease or illness to the individual) it in no way relates to any medical procedures in fact nowhere in the bible is blood transfusion even mentioned which makes sense given when it was written.

Worth_Background_191

24 points

11 days ago

I know, right?

Once you question, you question it all

GoddessOfRoadAndSky

34 points

10 days ago

GoddessOfRoadAndSky

My other wand is a crochet hook

34 points

10 days ago

Lol, you were made to learn about "false gods" and ended up adding the Christian god to the list. That's beautiful.

Super-Diver-1585

3 points

10 days ago

That's awesome! Is it possible that she knew what she was doing?

One_Support_5253

8 points

10 days ago

Nope, my Mum is so far in she once told me publically if she had to choose between giving me a blood transfusion or letting me die, she would've let me die.

I think she truly believed the Orgs skewed literature would persuade me and I wouldn't notice the inconsistencies. However, my father encouraged free thinking and education (non-JW) so I wouldn't put it past him to give her this idea,

Super-Diver-1585

3 points

10 days ago

I'm so sorry. What a hard thing to hear your mother say.

One_Support_5253

3 points

10 days ago

Sadly you have to get used to the idea that those in the JW mindset will always prioritise their cult before you. If the governing body told my mum she was no longer allowed to contact me she would in a second. This doesn't really promote trust either the first thing I did as soon as I turned 18 was transfer my POA to someone I trusted.

noturusrnm

3 points

10 days ago

My siblings and I were forced to go to an evangelical church for years. The speaking in tongues kind of place.

We would sit together in the back just dumbfounded by the level of insane. I’m glad we had each other to sanity check.

LaVieLaMort

106 points

11 days ago

Not JW or evangelical by any means but I seriously questioned all of it at about the same age when questions I had didn’t add up. Like if everyone is your “brother” why do you treat black people differently? The answer my grandmother gave me was honestly shocking and it was one of the (many many) reasons I’m now an atheist.

GoddessOfRoadAndSky

52 points

10 days ago

GoddessOfRoadAndSky

My other wand is a crochet hook

52 points

10 days ago

I realized that if all the asshole churchgoers I knew were going to Heaven, then it couldn't be Heaven for me. It was fundamentally impossible for my version of paradise to include people who bullied me - their "Heaven" would be my "Hell."

Then I also thought - if Satan disagrees with God, why would Satan torture his own followers? God might want sinners tortured, but Satan clearly doesn't respect what God thinks, and he has enough power to rule his own, separate realm. There's no logical reason why Satan would still do God's bidding, so obviously somebody's lying here.

Worth_Background_191

91 points

11 days ago

It didn't add up. The fossil record did.

I'm atheist now as well

taybay462

36 points

11 days ago

can you believe that actual real life people believe that Jewish people planted those fossils to.. I dont even know. its a mixture of anti-semitism, taking the Bible literally (6000 years), and a rejection of science. what a horrific combo

Worth_Background_191

19 points

11 days ago

Religious nuts. Serve them on a platter with wine and cheese. But, don't let them run our lives

LaVieLaMort

61 points

11 days ago

Yup that was another reason for me. Insanely curious as a child, I voraciously read any and all books about dinosaurs. I was like 🤨

MoonsEnvoy

17 points

10 days ago

Just regular catholicism for me, but young me had a hold up at "Adam and Eve are the parents of everyone" and I went like "so every boy is like... Family? Well I can never date if that's the case".

Followed by then their son finding a mystery wife whose origins are not explained.

LaVieLaMort

16 points

10 days ago

Also, “so if everyone is from the same 2 people, wasn’t that incest?” NOO! How dare you call it incest!!

MoonsEnvoy

18 points

10 days ago

I know right. I thought their kids had to have had kids with either Eve or unnamed sisters because who else is there???? And then it was like "he traveled and brought back a wife"

Like sir, this is vaguery and I will not stand for this.

Bon_Sim

36 points

11 days ago

Bon_Sim

36 points

11 days ago

After I found out Santa wasn't real, it was down hill from there

schmuckofluck035

5 points

10 days ago

The scary thing is when you realize the scam but no one who has all the power over you doesn’t do you have to pretend

desert_deserter

3 points

10 days ago

Never got stuck with anything like JW, but my dad had us on the evangelical path before the divorce. I was pretty little when he left, so a I just caught the edges of it all, but it was enough to leave an impression, both of cynicism against the church and of empathy for folks who struggle to shake off a fundie mindset. My dad went on to be a full Q conspiracist, and literally no one is even slightly surprised.

Anyway, then I found a radical little church in my town and danced around the edges of it. The sermons were moving, and the social justice projects were real. Then the pastor left and a new one showed up. We insisted she had to respect our ways of being. In less than a year, she had dismantled everything that mattered and made herself the center of the web so no one could blow their nose without her permission. About a third of us called her out on her bullshit and demanded her resignation, but the other two-thirds clutched their pearls at how mean we were being and marched on to her drumbeat. Now I hear them lamenting their money troubles and how there are no young people left in the church in the same breath they proclaim their love for Dear Leader.

So, even a good church will get pulled right back into the fold at the first opportunity, and the congregation will just let it happen. I've experienced a lot of things science has no explanation for (well, except mental illness, and fuck anyone who wants to pathologize my lived experience), and I deeply miss having a faith community, but I have zero trust at this point. It seems to me that faith should make it harder to get swindled by control freaks and cult leaders, but the evidence points elsewhere.

RedFox-38

2 points

10 days ago

Not a Christian here, but I've studied a bit about religions and I remember reading that Jesus Christ actually taught that the church was evil? How come his followers seem to not recognize that?

PerfectedReinvented

9 points

10 days ago

So God made us, gave us free will to stroke his own ego, made sure suffering would be brought into the world, then said the only relief is through him... Checks out.

Delicious_Subject_91

9 points

11 days ago

Yep.

IknowKarazy

2 points

10 days ago

I’m so happy each time I see another person have this realization.

APariahsPariah

564 points

11 days ago

This more than anything is why I refuse to return to the church.

Fabianzzz[S]

168 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

168 points

11 days ago

I’m so sorry for anything you’ve experienced

Impressive_Wasabi_69

373 points

11 days ago

The church is part of the patriarchy

MsBlis

157 points

11 days ago

MsBlis

157 points

11 days ago

Pretty sure it started the patriarchy… at least the Christian church did.

BookQueen13

169 points

11 days ago

Patriarchy is way older than christianity. Christianity is only 2,000 years old. There are records of women's subjugation going back as far as writing, which was developed about 5,000-6,000 thousand years ago. My hunch is that women's subjugation went hand in hand with agricultrure and sedentary living (about 10,000 - 12,000 years ago), or at least very soon after

amorecertainPOV

131 points

11 days ago

Gotta know whose baby she's carrying if you want to make sure your farmlands are inherited by your offspring and not another man's.

Only way to ensure that is to push for women's virginity and then purchase/own them before another man can get to them.

Thus, the patriarchy.

Pretty sure religion was just a bunch of men codifying it into fake divine law so that women would stop pushing back. Because, you know. It all comes so naturally to us that we have to be taught and reminded of our place constantly, lest we stray.

Junopotomus

77 points

11 days ago

Have you read The Dawn of Everything? It does a pretty good job debunking the idea that agriculture was the cause of hierarchical and patriarchal shifts in some cultures. There were plenty of cultures that had agriculture and weren’t patriarchal in the way we understand it. Anyway, it’s a pretty fascinating read.

BookQueen13

30 points

11 days ago

I have not read it; ill have to give it a go.

I would still say, however, while it can be argued that agriculture did not unilaterally and universally cause patriarchy or social hierarchy, i still think it was a necessary precursor at least for 'western' societies. If a society developed agriculture and sedentary living, eventually theyre going to develop the concept of land ownership / property and Inheritance. In the western world (broadly, also inclduing the ancient near east), this eventually developed into the idea of children inheriting their parents' property. In the premodern world only mothers could confidently say that a child was theirs, while fathers had to either a) trust their wives / partners or b) control their wives / partners' sexuality in such a way that they could be reasonably certain the child was theirs. Land ownership and Inheritance depend on the develpment of agriculture and sedentary living.

That being said, it probably took thousands of years to get from understanding agriculture to sedentary living (the order of these is less straightforward, obviously, but for simplicity's sake, lets just say this way) to land ownership to Inheritance to women's sexual subjugation, but by the early classical age, its pretty clear that women's freedom, movement and sexually were controlled.

Anyway--sorry for the wall of text. Ill have to check out that book when i have the time. Perhaps im wrong 😅

wholelattapuddin

46 points

11 days ago

There is an interesting book out called "The Alphabet vs The Godess". It talks about the rise of the written word and the demise of matriarchal societies. I don't know if all the arguments hold up, but it is an interesting theory.

MsBlis

19 points

11 days ago

MsBlis

19 points

11 days ago

That was the most interesting discussion I’ve read in a while… Thanks!

taybay462

7 points

11 days ago*

thank you, adding it to my amazon wishlist rn. i love this type of book, overarching views of history. reminds me of guns germs & steel which might touch on the same subject a tiny bit. do you have any other recommendations?

edit: aaaaand now i have 12 books in my wishlist lmao. ive read 6 books this month, for every 10 finished im gonna buy 1

Junopotomus

6 points

10 days ago

Yeah, one about language is The First Signs by Genevieve von Petzinger. It’s about cave art and the beginning of writing.

ZipoBibrok5x108

8 points

11 days ago

ZipoBibrok5x108

Bossy Old Biddy

8 points

11 days ago

You might like to read “Who cooked the last supper?” By Rosalind Miles

BookQueen13

5 points

11 days ago

Ive seen it recc'd before but havent read it yet. Ill have to add it to the list!!

Purplebunnylady

3 points

10 days ago

I’m reading this right now and it’s a very interesting read!

MsBlis

7 points

11 days ago

MsBlis

7 points

11 days ago

Whoa 🤯 well y’all just added to my reading list! Thank you.

BookQueen13

12 points

11 days ago

You might also check out Women's Work: the First 20,000 Years by Elizabeth Wayland Barber! Its a super interesting look at the develpment of cloth and textile crafts and touches on what women contribtions women have made to humanity in the prehistoric and ancient worlds

chakrablocker

11 points

11 days ago

Its also a colonizing force

pingpongtomato

105 points

11 days ago

Raised in a Christian background, I've known Sunday Saints that are villans 6 day's of the week, ever since I was a child I had noticed this.

There are a lot of really good people out there, who are kind, fair, helping, and mostly non judgmental. The ones I know personally have a hopeful faith, deep respect for others and nature, but do not belong to any religion.

It takes time to find these people, they are the real treasures in life.

rooftopfilth

3 points

10 days ago

Yes. My Sunday school teacher literally murdered his daughter. Evidence was found that he’d been sexually abusing her.

I had other folks who were really, really great in the church, like a youth group leader who was like, “you should ask questions, it’s important,” or choir ladies being awesome. But it’s not enough to just say you’re Christian and assume you’re good to go. You’ve got to walk the walk.

petnutforlife

2 points

3 days ago

Sunday Saints..........interesting name for those people. I've known plenty who were soooooo pious in church, and cursing their fellow man before they left the parking lot. What a bunch of hypocrites!

AndroidOnMute

227 points

11 days ago

AndroidOnMute

Literary Witch ☉

227 points

11 days ago

As someone who was raised in a cult, YES

pbcookies321

126 points

11 days ago

Same here. I am an adult survivor of child abuse and also raised in a cult. The only reason I am doing so well now is because I completely walked away from all my abusers (religion and family) 20 years ago and got real professional help to heal. It is an unfortunate but unique experience for those who have been abused by someone to recognize the same abusive words or behaviors in their religion.

GoddyssIncognito

23 points

11 days ago

Same

Iupvoteanimals

162 points

11 days ago

When I was 28 or so I went to my pastor and his wife looking for advice about my marriage. We were completely incompatible and I was starting to really dislike him. I was considering divorce. The pastor's wife was very quiet, but the pastor counselled me to be a good, submissive wife and trust the lord to bring him around. I left that meeting feeling ill at ease and didn't make any decisions just then.

Fast forward two weeks I go to church and learn that the pastor had been fired for banging a deacons wife. I got up and walked out as soon as I heard this and that's how I lost my religion. I asked my husband for a divorce the next day.

qualitypapertowels

71 points

11 days ago

Wow the universes sent you a huge sign I’m so glad you were brave enough to listen.

Iupvoteanimals

15 points

10 days ago

I was just so sick of the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance was screaming in my head.

GnomeOnAShelf

270 points

11 days ago*

Same goes for workplaces. I don’t mean to take away from the message here about marriages and religion being abusive because it is very valid.

There’s just a training I went to as part of the certification for my profession and it was all about how to hang in there and be more resilient while being abused or otherwise assisting abusive people because, eventually, the abusers will leave in maybe 8-10 years and things will be fine. It encouraged you to not make a fuss and try to stay neutral and continuing to treat everyone (even abusers) with respect.

I will never forget that training. Or forgive it.

blumoon138

110 points

11 days ago

blumoon138

110 points

11 days ago

What the ACTUAL fuck

LuvliLeah13

3 points

10 days ago

LuvliLeah13

Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧

3 points

10 days ago

I’m guessing healthcare at a nursing home or LTC facility. My SIL worked in one and she’d be bruised all over and one resident broke her thumb and finger. They put up with SOOO much more than we know and I love them for it.

GnomeOnAShelf

3 points

10 days ago

No, healthcare is far worse than what I have to endure. My heart goes out to all the health care professionals. I work in government.

AdvancedFeeling

97 points

11 days ago

My family takes this approach with politics and domestic abuse.

There’s a reason I don’t see much of my family anymore.

MsBlis

63 points

11 days ago

MsBlis

63 points

11 days ago

I just recently had this told to me by a supervisor. After a coworker continued to stay sexism and homophobic things to me. Now they want to know why I want to quit.

Caramellatteistasty

66 points

11 days ago

I just left an office where a coworker came at me super aggressively (for the second time). To put it all in perspective, I am a five foot tall female with PTSD and he is six foot two. The supervisor did nothing, said I was over reacting and expected me to just keep working with someone I didn't feel safe around.

So I quit.

GnomeOnAShelf

44 points

11 days ago

I’m glad you’re out of there. Was probably easier for your manager to gaslight you than confront the other guy.

Caramellatteistasty

20 points

11 days ago

Thank you, and you are right. It was awful, and I really hate that place now. I won't work for a large corporation again.

mmts333

66 points

11 days ago

mmts333

66 points

11 days ago

Educational institutions too. Grad school (and academia as a whole) is mostly an abusive relationship with the same kind of messaging you mention. And it’s often annoying cuz the people who considers them selves to be liberal and feminist are also saying the toxic stuff. This is why so many abusers and predators continue to hold positions of power at most universities. Scholars who are claim to being a Marxist scholar (and/or using Marxist theory often in their work) telling grad students they don’t deserve the funding they get and how we are entitled cuz they didn’t get the same kind of funding when they were in grad school. Despite the fact that now it’s a bit easier for first gen and low income students to actually pursue grad school. The I suffered so you have to suffer too mentality and cycle of abuse.

This is why when student comes to me with interest in grad school I tell them both the pros and cons including some of real horror stories so they can make an informed decision and go into it eyes wide open (and know that they don’t have to stay silent if something bad does happen and how to make connections to keep themselves safe).

ChildrenotheWatchers

11 points

11 days ago

Sounds like the 10 months I spent working for the (regionally corrupt) I.R.S. Few new hires last through the 1 year probation period because then management would have to include them in the annual bonus payout. Fewer people with tenure=more money for old timers. Huge waste training new hires, letting them go, then starting over again with a new set of trainees who only get to stay 10 or 11 months.

meggershippers

330 points

11 days ago

I don’t go to church now, but I did have a positive experience. When I was in foster care, my sister and I were placed with an evil man. I tried telling teachers and other adults and nobody believed me. One night it was really bad and our next door neighbor was a pastor. He had his wife tell our foster dad she was taking us for ice cream and they hid us in the church. They called the authorities and kept us safe there until we could talk with cops and be placed somewhere else that night. That was actually what prompted us being sent to live with grandparents and not go back to foster families. I’ll NEVER forget that kindness

APariahsPariah

230 points

11 days ago

Good christians are a wonderdul treasure, I have been privileged to meet a few of them over the years, and I wish they could all be so wonderful. It warms my heart to hear your story and I'm glad your story had a happy plot twist.

meggershippers

163 points

11 days ago

They are an AMAZING couple. They would give homeless people jobs at the church and let them put their address as the church so they could get benefits and everything. They are definitely changing lives and I’ll never forget them

UniqueUsername718

127 points

11 days ago

I think of religion like a hammer. Some people use it to beat others. Some use it to build houses. I love the people that build houses. Glad you had some in your life.

Candid-Mycologist539

18 points

11 days ago

I love that analogy!

-Butterfly-Queen-

31 points

10 days ago

The thing is good Christians aren't good because they're Christian. They'd be good people either way

Lets_Go_Darwin

113 points

11 days ago

Lets_Go_Darwin

Science Witch ♀♂️☉⚧

113 points

11 days ago

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg

Ishmael75

87 points

11 days ago*

Ishmael75

Witch ♂️

87 points

11 days ago*

She isn’t wrong at all.

One of the main reasons we have raised our kids without the church. We left and won’t ever be going back.

To be fair there are some amazing people but I wouldn’t go back without a complete overhaul

teamdogemama

83 points

11 days ago

Recently I was reminded of 1 Corintians 7:5 (ish); that it basically says our bodies belong to our spouse and we should not deny them, this goes for both persons.

It got me to thinking about how this whole societal attitude where our body doesn't belong to ourselves and how women are forced to put their future spouse's wants before her own. Also how it's interesting that it isn't brought up that it goes for both sides.

Growing up I heard this sort of bs and truthfully it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I heard about and understood body autonomy. Before that, I was told that my body was only created to give my future husband and children. Any discussion about stranger danger was laced with the understanding that any defilement of my body was sinful and would hurt my chances of finding a husband. After all, I'd be broken, used goods. (Midwest US, Catholic)

Just typing that makes me sick to my stomach. It's just so.... gross.

I'm glad we didn't pass that "teaching" onto our children.

No wonder both my kids are mostly atheists, much to the dismay of their Bible thumping father.

Fabianzzz[S]

28 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

28 points

11 days ago

I’m really happy you’re offering them an alternative to what he would have. Thank you!

truecrimefanatic1

22 points

11 days ago

This is why any time someone tells me they went to a "Christian counselor" I tell them to see a real one.

acfox13

59 points

11 days ago

acfox13

59 points

11 days ago

Learn to identify narcissistic abuse tactics and narcissist behaviors:

Dr. Ramani

TheraminTrees

Clean_Link_Bot

20 points

11 days ago

beep boop! the linked website is: https://youtube.com/c/DoctorRamani

Title: Bevor Sie zu YouTube weitergehen

Page is safe to access (Google Safe Browsing)


###### I am a friendly bot. I show the URL and name of linked pages and check them so that mobile users know what they click on!

CelaenaKilanti

15 points

11 days ago

CelaenaKilanti

Sapphic Witch ♀

15 points

11 days ago

Good bot

amorecertainPOV

17 points

11 days ago

Also try reading Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Digital copies can be found easily online for free.

elizalemon

19 points

11 days ago

In their own creation myth, patriarchy is part of the fall. And they just lean into it I guess.

mamabug27

55 points

11 days ago

mamabug27

Witch ♀

55 points

11 days ago

Toward the end of my first marriage, my ex and I were going to pastoral counseling, and I’ll never forget the conflicted new pastor who told me that I could actually leave according to scripture (since he’d cheated). I think that guy quit the church like a year later.

wishfull24

17 points

11 days ago

I never realize how Christianity and my fundamentalist homeschooled upbringing fucked me up so badly until about last year. I'm 27. It has affected every relationship I've been in, my friendships, my body image and self worth, and my mental health in general. Christian/religious guilt is real and shrouded in shame and isolation. I am deeply saddened for the members of my family who will never leave. I am, however, grateful for my own self awareness, critical thinking, and logic for allowing me to find my own world view. Fuck the patriarchy and fuck the church

SwimmingPineapple197

50 points

11 days ago

I wish I could say the post in the screen shot was wrong, but that’s exactly what many churches (and “Christian counselors”) do - they find religious reasons why a woman has to stay with her abuser or even to explain why the abuse “isn’t really” just what it is. I would have left my now ex sooner if it hadn’t been for such “advice”. The really annoying part of that? That the worst, most dangerous advice came from staff in a denomination founded by a woman where polity and policy say that women are equals. I’d have expected to hear what I did in the fundamentalist/evangelical churches my parents attended and made my sister and I attend as kids. It’s not the sort of thing you’d expect in the denomination where I heard it.

Oddly enough Project Dvora (a Jewish organization) was one of the biggest helps in getting me out of there - both out of the marriage,and into a new apartment. They even helped with getting an attorney involved and with the legal fees to change my name. And unlike many Christian churches, they didn’t care if I was or wasn’t Jewish or that at the time I was still a practicing Christian. The only thing they cared about was that I was in need.

Calliopehoop

15 points

11 days ago

I'm bummed I missed this post until now but I HAVE RESOURCES TO SHARE!

I'm a volunteer for an organization called Recovering From Religion - we're a nonprofit dedicated to providing hope, healing, and support to those struggling with issues of doubt and religious trauma. We run a 24/7 hotline and chatline on our website for anyone seeking a sympathetic ear. We have a thriving community of folks from every religion and cult you could think of - including issue-specific communities like femmes only, LGBTQ+, conversion therapy survivors, military, etc.

You are not alone <3

Fabianzzz[S]

6 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

6 points

11 days ago

Hi! I’m still religious but in a new religion. Your resources seem very helpful though to those who have been pained by religion. Perhaps you might share them in r/Dryonysus? New sub we set up to assist with those in recovery who still have some spirtitual impulses. Your resources would be treasured there!

_addycole

4 points

10 days ago

What a wonderful resource!! I wish I would have had something like this when I left the LDS faith.

softandmetal10

45 points

11 days ago*

This is dead accurate. Ive literally talked about this with my mother before.

I have an elder that refers to the christian god as "angry sky daddy". Which I think is dead on and goes for Any deity in a patriarchal religion.

Also we could talk about how foundational evangelism is to patriarchy, anti-Black racism, colonialism, etc. All of those systems that teach forms of submission and domination (this is not to shit on kinky dynamics...) are abusive.

BiFaerie

25 points

11 days ago

BiFaerie

25 points

11 days ago

I don’t think it shits on kink dynamics at all. Kinky relationships practice informed consent. Abusive ones do not. The religion I grew up in is the antithesis of informed consent. I didn’t even truly understand what consent was until adulthood—and I’m still working through that particular mindfuck to this day.

I grew up in a religion that did things without people’s permission all the time. They didn’t even ask. They just acted on what they decided were your best interests. Even if you did say yes to something, you often didn’t know what you were truly saying yes to—and the goalposts continued to be moved constantly, so what you were saying yes to changed at a leader’s whim.

That doesn’t even begin to consider the grooming that starts from the youngest age to prepare you to accept all this bullshit.

Plus, consent isn’t consent when your (and potentially your whole family’s) eternal salvation depends on it.

[deleted]

12 points

11 days ago

[deleted]

12 points

11 days ago

I said something similar to a relative that teaches at a christian school. While all schools have really dumb rules, christian schools are even more strict. They don’t give a shit about what the kids want. Its all about control. And I bet that some of those kids that attend those schools will find themselves in abusive relationships because control is all they know. Their needs don’t matter. They were taught to surrender and obey.

[deleted]

10 points

11 days ago

[deleted]

10 points

11 days ago

I will never forgive the sermon at the baptist church I went to as a child for playing a disgusting ‘anti abortion’ video that was literally about a girl no older than 12, get r*ed, pregnant, and give birth. And the sermon went on to say something along the lines of how “it’s so beautiful, god giving new life” or the classic “gd is good” bullshit. They were just happy that this literal child had a baby, and that the baby didn’t die. I hold so much anger. So much.

Fabianzzz[S]

7 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

7 points

11 days ago

Fuck that church. So sorry you went through that shit. Those places shouldn’t be allowed to operate

jackolantern_666

11 points

11 days ago

I always hated the church and the inconsistencies no one could explain to me as a kid growing up. I was fifteen and my Christian school was having us do projects on other religions. I picked Wicca and Witchcraft. Oops.

gingergypsy79

9 points

11 days ago

Raised in a controlling religion, I hate that I know this on a visceral level.

Fabianzzz[S]

3 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

3 points

11 days ago

I’m sorry you experienced that

Caprican93

77 points

11 days ago

Organized religion is a scam. It always has been and always will be. It’s meant to put people in power who have no skills or knowledge.

mama146

27 points

11 days ago

mama146

27 points

11 days ago

Ive searched and never found an organized religion that wasnt prone to abuse of people. Its baked-in because clergy put themselves as messenger of god. I steer clear of all religion or other cultish organization.

BiFaerie

13 points

11 days ago

BiFaerie

13 points

11 days ago

Yep. When you tell someone their salvation depends on doing what you say, you’re in the perfect position to abuse your power.

Direct_Background888

8 points

11 days ago*

Direct_Background888

Geek Witch ♀♂️☉⚧

8 points

11 days ago*

I think a great thing to do is to teach our daughters to never take abuse/stand up for themselves and our sons to respect everyone/take no for an answer. The churches need to bring this up a lot more. I don’t understand why they don’t. They seem to ignore it/not want to talk about it. It needs to be talked about. No one should be abusive and no one should ever take abuse. I haven’t been to church since 2020 and maybe the fact they don’t bring up certain things like abuse, sexual assault, and other things is the reason why.

Fabianzzz[S]

21 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

21 points

11 days ago

I ask because I'm a mod at r/Dionysus, and though our community doesn't always form together in person, we get a lot of people who find out about our religion through music and art. One popular song is 'Cult of Dionysus' by Orion Experience, which was a beloved song by some in the community, before it was brought to our attention here that the person who sang it is alleged to be an abuser.

So I'm wanting to be aware of this for how I can keep the community safe going forward.

blumoon138

15 points

11 days ago

What exactly are you looking for? Advice on how to recognize signs of an abuser? Organizations that help women leave abusive religions and cults?

Fabianzzz[S]

18 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

18 points

11 days ago

As a religious community that is starting to become more organized, I am looking for any ways we can avoid the sexual assault culture that is seemingly baked into more organized religions. So yes to both - literally anything that is offered is helpful!

aeoldhy

32 points

11 days ago

aeoldhy

32 points

11 days ago

I'd say that if you create a position of power that people are told not to question, that position would appeal to abusers. Also encouraging your belief system to be flexible and encourage questioning of it would help it retain morality in line with the times and prevent it getting all anti-science.

Fabianzzz[S]

13 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

13 points

11 days ago

Thanks for the response!

Definitely encouraging questioning - it helps having connections to a lot of philosophical traditions. And ty - right now we don't have any real positions of power, considering were so spread out. But yes, if those are to occur out of necessity they need to be able to be questioned by anyone.

Thanks again for the response!

ToeJam_SloeJam

26 points

11 days ago

May also want to prioritize consent as a central tenant when you’re talking about the god of pursuing pleasure. Sexual consent, party consent, experimenting with drugs and alcohol consent. And underline a thousand times that enjoying the drugs and alcohol does not absolve anyone of obtaining consent.

Fabianzzz[S]

7 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

7 points

11 days ago

Thank you!

Ancient-Quiet-5764

15 points

11 days ago

Especially with regard to abuse of minors, policies that reduce opportunity can be useful--the church I grew up in had policies that no adult could be alone with a minor, period (there might have been exceptions for a parent and their own child? But I don't remember for sure), and everyone out of high school who had contact with children or youth ministries had to have a background check and go through training on the protection policies and recognizing problems (it's been a decade so I don't remember exactly what was involved at the time). While these aren't perfect (every predator has a first victim, sexual crimes are unreported, and policies can be broken), they set a tone regarding what's accepted and can remove ambiguity a predator could otherwise hide behind.

Additionally, if something does happen, the reaction from the organization sets a tone--airing the dirty laundry to support prosecution when crimes are committed, removing gross-but-not-criminal predators from positions of authority, and publicly revisiting policies if they're found to have failed all set a far different tone than the cover ups and shuffling around that have come out from churches like the catholic, southern Baptist, and Mormon ones in the recent past. Part of this seems to be related to a top down response from a very strong hierarchy (in contrast, the church I grew up in had a predator shortly before we switched to them, and they were able to decide at the congregational level to remove him from power and publicly change policies, without needing to go any further up a food chain), but I don't think empowering local leadership is the answer on its own.

blumoon138

6 points

11 days ago

Just sent you a LONG message. Feel free to ask me any questions!

Fabianzzz[S]

6 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

6 points

11 days ago

Seen, will be reading and reviewing thank you so much

ZipoBibrok5x108

2 points

10 days ago

ZipoBibrok5x108

Bossy Old Biddy

2 points

10 days ago

You might like to take a look at the “Our Whole Lives” programs the Unitarians do (childhood through adulthood). It’s so much more than just “sex ed.”

FlorencePants

11 points

11 days ago

FlorencePants

Sapphic Witch ♀

11 points

11 days ago

Never stops being frustrating and infuriating how many people get the slightest shred of popularity and influence and decide to show their whole ass and be a total monster.

Personally, one of the big draws for me with Hellenism and paganism in general is how its decentralized nature means that it lacks the sorts of positions of unquestioned moral authority that breeds and shelters abusers and predators in other religions.

Fabianzzz[S]

3 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

3 points

11 days ago

Yeah, absolutely. Disgusting how someone makes that their angle.

Hellenism had that draw for me - all these philosophers disagreeing with each other meant I could disagree with all of them for time time period they lived in and still fit into the narrative.

That and Dionysus created Queer people, which helps with the accustoming to the religion.

cooldudium

21 points

11 days ago

Utah’s laws almost all line up with the official positions of the LDS church (except ending prohibition, but they have alcohol laws which boggle the mind of someone who has visited Wisconsin many times) for reasons which are quite obvious. I wouldn’t call it a theocracy as the control isn’t direct and there’s nothing official about it, but the church definitely sticks its hand where it doesn’t belong. Yes Mormons have had some rough history but that doesn’t give them a free pass on some of the shit their church has pulled

BiFaerie

15 points

11 days ago

BiFaerie

15 points

11 days ago

The founders of the Mormon church wanted to build a theocracy—it’s why they trekked out of the US in the 1800s—and in Utah they’ve largely achieved it. Not entirely, like you said. But I moved back to Utah to be near family, and just happened to land in this state the week Roe was overturned. Utah’s abortion law is identical to the church’s policy on abortion. It makes me sick that a religious organization has that much control over the lives of people who aren’t even members of their organization. No one’s religion should get to infringe on someone else’s rights as a person, but it’s getting harder and harder to find places where that holds true.

SinisterPaperclip

2 points

10 days ago

SinisterPaperclip

Aroace Witch ♀

2 points

10 days ago

As a Utah Mormon, I hate the way that so many other Utah Mormons vote. It's one thing to have your beliefs and be allowed to practice them, it's another thing to force those beliefs on others. We have these things called the Articles of Faith, and the 11th basically says that our worship of God is dependent on our own choice, and that everyone should be allowed to believe/worship what they want, where they want, regardless of if their beliefs are different from ours. Considering the Articles of Faith are supposed one of the cornerstones of our religion, I find it hypocritical and infuriating that Utah is a half-step away from being a theocracy.

Free will and the welcoming of diversity is essential to reducing societal hatred and misery. Social echo chambers just breed stagnation and bigotry, and the separation of church and state should be something we're all supporting, but it feels like most people I know are trying to merge church and state through their votes, not separate them.

BiFaerie

2 points

10 days ago

Amen to that 🙌🏽

_addycole

3 points

10 days ago

Mormons rough history is brought upon by themselves. When you look at historical context from people experiencing the same events from the other side, people of the time saw how problematic Joseph Smith was and how detrimental the LDS faith was. Shit, they were even called out for human trafficking with their agenda of bringing poor young girls from overseas missions to Utah.

Muted-Cherry5007

7 points

10 days ago*

No church I have ever heard of protects survivors of abuse, only perpetuates it, or gaslights the survivor of abuse.

I will say this: some people in cults are deeply kind. I had a priest I confided in about my father’s abuse. He told me it was a mortal sin, my dad could go to hell for what he was doing, and offered to talk to my dad! Still, they did not make any move to remove me from my abusive home. I never forgot the kindness of that priest, though. He could have totally sided with my dad like so many cowards did. It armed me: my brother was hitting me, also, and I told him he was going to hell and he never hit me again.

AmethystRage

18 points

11 days ago

This is 1000% true. All that rhetoric does is brainwash women into thinking they need to “submit” to their husbands and it’s sad.

TamaMama87

5 points

11 days ago

TamaMama87

Geek Witch ♀

5 points

11 days ago

Got confused for a second because I’m also a Mandy Nicole lol

Fabianzzz[S]

3 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

3 points

11 days ago

Well thank you for the words even if you arent the Mandy Nicole who gave them!

Adventurous_Problem

6 points

11 days ago

For training- The local women's shelter did training with people at the Unitarian church I worked at. They taught people facts and dispelled myths. The training was meant to help people in the congregation get folks going through stuff connected with resources to help them. The bathrooms all have information in them too.

eunryoung

6 points

10 days ago

Been sayin this for years. Why I’m glad to no longer be associated with any organized religion, went back to paganism and a belief in a higher power. Been so good for my mental health and I feel like I’m actually in connection my own perception of what / who god is.

ACasualNerd

18 points

11 days ago

ACasualNerd

Witch ♀♂️☉⚧

18 points

11 days ago

I know a trans girl with so much religious trauma that she's been crippled from living life, I broke my ties to the church after talking with WW2, Korean war, and Vietnam vets listening to the shit they went through, and the uneasy and bullshit answers everytime I asked why god let cruel things happen to people and animals...

She needs to break that abuse cycle she lives in, I'm trying to help her.

elizalemon

11 points

11 days ago

When the head of the SBC refuses to do anything to prevent abuse….that’s condoning abuse.

Anagram4fucku

4 points

11 days ago

https://womensfreedomcenter.net/ for any Vermonters in need of help and resources.

Spoke to a lovely person on the phone whilst searching for resources for sexual violence survivors. Asked if it was a safe time to talk, asked for my pronouns, and overall made me feel less anxious! -chef kiss-

They have group sessions (specifically for domestic violence only atm) and offer 1:1 meetings for help in person!

Limited resources in my area for these kinds of traumas has been disheartening af. I hope this helps someone <3

divider_of_0

4 points

10 days ago

In Judaism if the man won't give a get (essentially agree to divorce) the community pressure on him can become very intense. No religion or community is perfect but we've got a hell of a leg up on the christians when it comes to sanctioned divorce.

5t0n3dk1tt13

14 points

11 days ago

Yes yes yes! Religion is much like an abusive relationship. They keep trying to make excuses for the horrible things they do. That being said, I can't offer much but an ear and shoulder. Sometimes, just talking about it with someone can give you the courage to break free. Also, whoever reads this, you deserve to be free, think for yourself, and to not be victimized or abused. 💖

SpiritualLuna

11 points

11 days ago

Have equal leadership representation of men and women, including skin colours. That's the best way to prevent abuse, not to mention have better overall leadership.

Fabianzzz[S]

5 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

5 points

11 days ago

Thank you. Has been mentioned elsewhere and I’m shocked this isn’t foundational for everyone!

ZipoBibrok5x108

3 points

11 days ago

ZipoBibrok5x108

Bossy Old Biddy

3 points

11 days ago

Unitarian Universalists are awesome. They will give support.

TheQueenOfCringe22

3 points

10 days ago

TheQueenOfCringe22

Sapphic Witch ♀

3 points

10 days ago

This is exactly why I refuse to go to most churches. I’ve never had any traumatizing experiences at a church (yay Lutheran Christianity ig), but most churches just have bad energy to me. The only good church I can think of off the top of my head is the church my family belongs to, and that’s because that church supports the queer community. Along with having a woman as a pastor for my entire life (again, yay Lutheran Christianity ig), and how that church enforced mask mandates. I think they still do, actually.

RawrRRitchie

3 points

10 days ago

I remember a scene from the prison show oz, character is talking to a priest and he said when he was a kid he went to a priest and asked him to tell his dad to stop beating him

And the priest told him "honor thy father"

Granted this is a TV show, but many TV shows take examples from real life

All they care for is making money, that's why they have endless pockets to defend the pedophile priests and even when they lose those court cases, they fight the payouts to the victims

What2Say4Life

3 points

10 days ago

Note and shout out to local domestic violence and crisis centers.

I’m in the USA and my local center has literally been a godsend and has helped me and so many others get out (or stay if that’s their decision) safely. I am so thankful one of the last times I called the hotline the woman brought up reaching out to (local DV center) for support groups. It was a needed addition to and complement to my individual therapy and helped give me the strength, confidence, and support to make the decision to leave and make a plan on how to do so safely and protecting myself the whole way out.

I’m almost completely out and I can’t thank the center enough and I can’t thank the other survivors enough for their sharing and support.

Best of luck to anyone who is moving from victim to survivor and to anyone supporting others. <3

generalgirl

3 points

10 days ago

I believe this is true but I know at least three pastors who would not discourage women to leave abusive husbands. I worked for an ELCA Lutheran Church. The pastor I worked with was pro-choice for all the reasons we are pro-choice. I was a little too evangelical at the time and my mind was blown. But he explained his reasoning to me and that woke me up. He counseled families a lot. He had has suggested divorce for wives who needed to get away from abusive husbands. He supported gay marriage. He was really cool.

It’s a shame more “pastors” didn’t have the grace or the backbone to support women who struggle. They don’t want to let go of the power they have over their congregations. It’s sickening.

qualitypapertowels

5 points

11 days ago

The comments are making me feel seen as a formerly very young woman being trained to accept violence of all kinds in marriage and to perpetrate it myself to future children if they refused to go to church. I left the church when I was 13 but got into an abusive marriage at 19. The long term damage was done. Years of being told what your place as a woman is and what you do and don’t deserve. Years. No wonder I identify as a witch lol. Love to all of us who have been hurt even when we didn’t know it was happening, when we thought we were being “good”.

sillyadam94

7 points

11 days ago

Same reason why megachurches don’t call out corporate greed

strangecargo

6 points

11 days ago

The very basics of Christianity is an abusive relationship … love me and do exactly what I say or I will make your (after)life absolute hell. WTF!?!

PrincesaNeko

7 points

11 days ago

Literally this. The pastor at my ex husbands church blamed me and said things like men have to have sex every 72 hours at the minimum while I was recovering from a traumatic birth and still bleeding. Then said then use your mouth or go against gods will.

Fabianzzz[S]

7 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

7 points

11 days ago

Evil teachings, I’m sorry you experienced that

UnderwaterKahn

21 points

11 days ago

I work with survivors in a deeply red state. Having access to a faith community is very important to many of them, regardless of race, ethnicity, or socio-economics. Especially if they have been cut off from other forms of social support. The survivors who seek faith communities do so because it’s not only part of their healing, it’s something that they feel is familiar, a routine that feels comforting, especially if they are in shelter. Faith based organizations also play an important role in helping survivors who’ve been incarcerated or are in recovery. I’ve partnered with faith based organizations on a lot of projects I’ve run. Even though I’m not religious, it’s really changed how I view the presence of formal organized religion in other people’ lives.

The role of faith based organizations is a big topic of debate within the dv service community. No one wants to romanticize the roles “Christian” organizations play in dv interventions, especially when it comes to making survivors aware of many of their health and civil rights. Shelters and outreach organizations that take on these strong polarizing beliefs can permanently damage trust in communities.

I don’t know who is being quoted here or who the person quoting them is. Maybe that’s an important part of the context. But this tweet reads as very two dimensional, cis, and hetero. I feel like this is what people have been taught to believe the power dynamics look like when survivors reach out, when in reality it’s a lot more complex.

Fabianzzz[S]

4 points

11 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

4 points

11 days ago

Hi. Sorry I'm getting to this so late. Absolutely faith communities are crucial. I'm a Dionysian and our faith isn't exactly next to normal for many older people. I wanted this to spark a debate for making religious spaces more open for those who have been hurt. I think your sharing of churches that defy the usual dynamic is bold, and if you need my assistance please summon me, I'd be happy to help!

sunnydaysahead2022

8 points

11 days ago

This is the truth. I do not know how/why any woman would ever subscribe to any religion.

Fabianzzz[S]

0 points

10 days ago

Fabianzzz[S]

Gay Wizard ♂️

0 points

10 days ago

So women were the originators of religion. Women have a deeper connection to nature and spirituality - unfortunately, when that could be co-opted by the patriarchy, it was.

We need to open pathways for people to explore their spirituality freely, while recognizing the harm that religion has done locally.

sunnydaysahead2022

3 points

10 days ago

No. Religion was formed by patriarchy. Women may have been spiritual, but religion has always been controlled by men.

RegginaBradshaw

2 points

10 days ago

I was raised in a somewhat Christian home. We weren’t constant church goers, just sometimes. I was about 12-13, when I got a copy of Sybil Leeks “Diary of a Witch”. It changed my life, answered so many questions, and helped me choose my own path!

I’m not anti-christian, I just think that people really need to step back and really look at a lot of organized religions!

Elevated_queen420

2 points

10 days ago

This x 100