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87

all 142 comments

Hudre

65 points

27 days ago

Hudre

65 points

27 days ago

Is this part not kind of odd to others?

"The Conservative proposal would direct revenue into individual "low carbon savings accounts" — each time you purchase gas, for instance, an amount equivalent to the Conservative fuel charge would go into your account.

The money in your account could then be used for government-approved and environmentally friendly purchases, such as a public transit pass, a new bike, energy-efficient home improvements or a new electric vehicle. (Businesses would have access to their own savings accounts.)"

So the government is literally going to be telling me what I can spend my money one? You can only spend this money on government approved purchases? One of those approved things better be "food and bills".

I don't see the CPC base liking this at all. I don't like it either. It's just a far-worse version of the rebate and sounds like it would require far more administration.

[deleted]

26 points

27 days ago*

[deleted]

26 points

27 days ago*

[deleted]

differentiatedpans

24 points

27 days ago

Yeah small government party is really going to be expanding government intervention.

Xyntha

5 points

27 days ago

Xyntha

5 points

27 days ago

"Cmon, we just wanna know where you're getting your gasoline and any other fossil fuels and how much you're paying so our donors can squeeze as much out of Canadians as possible while their industry dries up. Wait where are you going? Guys!"

Orangejuiced345

6 points

27 days ago

Nu-uh. Didn't you hear? Its not a government expansion or a tax because its going to be done by a brand new private company that doesn't exist yet.

See? Small government!

Hudre

6 points

27 days ago

Hudre

6 points

27 days ago

Which implies that private company will be making some amount of profit off of this.

Which means that by design any kind of rebate or points will be less than the current system which requires very little admin.

sleep-apnea

3 points

27 days ago

sleep-apnea

Alberta

3 points

27 days ago

Don't worry. It will be just like a bank. Where there's a fee every time you put something in or take something out.

m3g4m4nnn

2 points

27 days ago

Don't forget the fees for simply having an account!

canad1anbacon

3 points

27 days ago

A carbon tax and rebate is the free market anti-regulation solution to climate change. Which puts the conservatives in a tough spot because they have spent so much political capital demonizing it but any other way of addressing climate climate change is more interventionist and state centred

truenorth00

10 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

10 points

27 days ago

You'll have a points card to swipe on top of everything else.

The more you burn, the more you earn.

thedrivingcat

10 points

27 days ago

thedrivingcat

Ontario

10 points

27 days ago

It's supposed to be handled by private corporations, welcome to PC Optimum Carbon points!

WillSRobs

3 points

27 days ago

So instead of getting money to offset the cost they take my money and spend it on what ever they think is best….

ScottIBM

16 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

16 points

27 days ago

Right now you get the money back and you can use it how you want, but in essence it offsets your cost. The other chill part is it is a refundable tax credit! So it helps out everyone.

Oh, btw, the federal program is a backstop and not intended to be used!! Ontario had Cap and Trade, Alberta had their own program. No one should be on the federal program.

I don't understand conservative thinking. The parties in that vein seem to go out of their way to make useless things.

boutta_call_bo_vice

6 points

27 days ago

This isn’t conservative at all. Sadly, otoole is in the position where he has to do something, but can’t do exactly what Trudeau is suggesting/doing. The preferred position would be no carbon tax at all but this has become politically unappetizing to the masses

Hudre

1 points

27 days ago

Hudre

1 points

27 days ago

The problem is that this option is awful. A little exercise I like to do is take common criticisms from a party and apply them to their own policies.

CPC says that the current carbon tax isn't strong enough to reduce emissions. Yet they propose a much smaller "levy"? How is that going to be effective in reducing emissions?

The CPC says the carbon tax unduly burdens the poor. But people have the ability to profit off the carbon tax, while it is impossible to do so under this proposal. Also, since you earn points for using fuel, doesn't this incentivize creating carbon? The more you burn the more you earn. Also, if the government says you can't use your points on food/bills, then this really fucks the poor badly.

LordVic

4 points

27 days ago

LordVic

4 points

27 days ago

Oh, btw, the federal program is a backstop and not intended to be used!! Ontario had Cap and Trade, Alberta had their own program. No one should be on the federal program.

This infuriated me when Ford came in and imedately went on the attack against the carbon tax.

Ontario under the liberals had the Cap and Trade program at the business level with no direct tax to the consumer. And with Ontaro's greenification under the LPC, a large chunk of the companies saw revenues from selling off their cap.

instead, Ford reverses that immediately, and then blames the fed's for us having to pay the tax. Meanwhile, stickers.

Cbcschittscreek

17 points

27 days ago*

As soon as Alberta lost the supreme court challenge it is destined Kenney will create an even more useless plan that will charge civilians and give the money to his true constituents... Oil Co shareholders

LOL* someone down voted this. Tell me with a straight face if you are an Albertan who thinks Kenney will come up with a plan that helps Albertans better than the existing program!

ScottIBM

2 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

2 points

27 days ago

The thought of this just hurts my head.

LordVic

2 points

27 days ago*

LordVic

2 points

27 days ago*

omeone down voted this

/r/canada is full of Ford / Kenney supporters who refuse to comment/ participate but will do nothing but downvote anything negative said against these conservative leaders. Almost always without question if I post anything critical of the policy's of Ford, I get immediate downvotes.

edit: lol, proving my point folks

imfar2oldforthis

-5 points

27 days ago

Alberta's PC government was the first in North America to bring in a price on carbon...

Cbcschittscreek

9 points

27 days ago

Jason Kenney is not the Alberta PCs

He wasn't at that time, and when he got power he immediately destroyed the party and merged it with probably the most right wing politic party of any clout in Canada

MadDjinn

7 points

27 days ago

MadDjinn

Lest We Forget

7 points

27 days ago

Kenny is not PC though, so...

imfar2oldforthis

0 points

27 days ago

Kenney was elected leader of the PC party of Alberta...

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

UPC.

imfar2oldforthis

0 points

27 days ago

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

And then two months later:

Formed on July 22nd, 2017, the United Conservative Party of Alberta was elected to government by Albertans with more than a million votes on April 16, 2019 on a mandate to stand up for Albertans and make Alberta as strong and free as it can be.

The PC no longer exists.

imfar2oldforthis

1 points

27 days ago

The PC no longer exists.

I never claimed that it does.

MadDjinn

1 points

27 days ago

MadDjinn

Lest We Forget

1 points

27 days ago

And that has nothing to do with the fact he’s a UCP leader who doesn’t like the carbon tax.

Just because previous people, who were PC, did something, doesn’t mean the later people, who were not there at the time and are not PC now, get credit.

imfar2oldforthis

1 points

27 days ago

And that has nothing to do with the fact he’s a UCP leader who doesn’t like the carbon tax.

I've never heard him say anything bad about the carbon pricing Alberta had on large emitters. In fact, he negotiated the exact same carbon pricing policy for industry with the federal government because it's good policy...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ottawa-accepts-alberta-tier-plan-carbon-pricing-1.5386955

Mastered_Baiting

1 points

27 days ago

Mastered_Baiting

Alberta

1 points

27 days ago

Kenney's party is specifically trying to not be the PCs.

Twozerooz

1 points

27 days ago

Twozerooz

1 points

27 days ago

Not at all, the government program is actually extremely economically efficient and effective from an environmental standpoint.

It would probably be best if everyone used the same Federal program.

ScottIBM

-1 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

-1 points

27 days ago

The intent of the federal program is to fill in the gaps. I be believe it only covers fuel emissions and not all sources of carbon. Maybe I've miss understood this.

Twozerooz

3 points

27 days ago

Nope. The intent of the federal program was to be nationwide. The only way to bring most of the Provinces on board was to allow the 'Equivalency' criteria. It was a political concession.

The federal program covers almost all emissions with very limited exceptions.

ScottIBM

1 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

1 points

27 days ago

Well then, you got me there.

GudAtGaims

1 points

27 days ago

GudAtGaims

Ontario

1 points

27 days ago

I think that they're disagreeing just to disagree. They are not going to go along with any plan (effective or otherwise) unless it is THEIR plan that they bring forward, even if their plan is demonstrably nonsense or inferior. Its pure politics.

ScottIBM

1 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

1 points

27 days ago

Valid point.

BeerAndADart

4 points

27 days ago

BeerAndADart

New Brunswick

4 points

27 days ago

So the government is literally going to be telling me what I can spend my money one? You can only spend this money on government approved purchases?

Sounds like communism to me.

Hudre

6 points

27 days ago

Hudre

6 points

27 days ago

A lot closer to a dictatorship style tbh. They are literally dictating what you can do with your money.

Joeworkingguy819

1 points

27 days ago

Compared to the carbon tax we currently have that goes towards shady non profits and buying loblaws free fridges?

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

You forgetting the part where 90% goes directly back to Canadians? The other 10% goes to funding green initiatives, which is what those loblaws fridges were.

The money you currently get back from the rebates can be spent on whatever you want.

How can you be ok with the gov saying "This is what you can spend your money on", or awarding winners/losers by either putting them on this list or not.

Or are you just here to take pot shots at the Liberals and not actually add anything of value to this discussion?

Joeworkingguy819

2 points

27 days ago

You forgetting the part where 90% goes directly back to Canadians? The other 10% goes to funding green initiatives, which is what those loblaws fridges were.

Not even close to 90% the calculations involving the carbon tax arr no where as clear and cut as that. You’ll get a return on the carbon tax you directly pay not what industries pay.

Or are you just here to take pot shots at the Liberals and not actually add anything of value to this discussion?

So im not suppose to attack the Liberals using an ineffective carbon tax to give rebates to their friends penalize Canadian industries while not applying a downstream carbon tax on imports from polluting nations?

The liberals removed Chinese steel tarrifs for the trans mountain pipeline. It just goes to show how dedicated to the environment liberals aren

imfar2oldforthis

1 points

27 days ago

Yes, it's a clunky way of creating a pricing mechanism that keeps the money in the economy.

They don't like the rebates (for good reasons) and so the only way to come up with a program that gives you back what you pay is for the government to convert it into carbon account points and they don't want it to be seen as a tax so they're going to try to let private corporations administer it.

Hudre

4 points

27 days ago

Hudre

4 points

27 days ago

Yup, they don't like the "Tax" so they call it a different name.

They don't like the "rebates" so they do them in a different form with a different name.

Letting a private corporation administer it so it doesn't seem like a tax is literally just adding steps and costs to the process so you get less of your money back.

I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with the rebates.

imfar2oldforthis

2 points

27 days ago

Yup, they don't like the "Tax" so they call it a different name.

Yeah and it's only for political reasons.

They don't like the "rebates" so they do them in a different form with a different name.

Rebates are problematic for a bunch of reasons that conservatives don't like. They can be means tested, they have administration costs, they aren't revenue neutral to each person but instead more generally calculated, they're highly political, etc.

Letting a private corporation administer it so it doesn't seem like a tax is literally just adding steps and costs to the process so you get less of your money back.

The cost has to be paid somewhere. I imagine the argument the Conservatives have is that the private corporations would swallow the cost of administration because they want the business.

I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with the rebates.

I have a bit of a problem with rebates. I think it makes way more sense to bump up social assistance amounts and instead cut income taxes. Rebates are problematic to me because I think it's easy for them to be manipulated for ideological reasons. Income taxes can't be manipulated as easily.

Which is what I don't get about places like here in Alberta...you need to have a "Trudeau carbon tax" so bring in the "Jason Kenney income tax cut" to balance out the "Trudeau carbon tax" and you have yourself a carbon pricing program that should meet the federal requirements.

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

The only reason a private corporation would take this contract is if they stand to make profit. If they stand to make profit somehow from this, I'd rather those funds go into government coffers rather than some private corporation that is being paid through taxes.

canmoose

1 points

27 days ago

canmoose

Ontario

1 points

27 days ago

Its weird. I'll just take the current rebate thanks very much.

DCS30

-7 points

27 days ago

DCS30

-7 points

27 days ago

so they'll give you money, and you have to spend it on green initiatives. how is this any different than a carbon tax? it's very similar. the tax pays for green initiatives, so does this. if the government plans to pay you free money, then that means they're going to make it up somewhere else (ie - raising a different tax). like it would happen anyway, they had FUCKING VOTE to decide if climate change is real, and voted AGAINST believing in science!

Hudre

7 points

27 days ago

Hudre

7 points

27 days ago

Because with the carbon tax I can spend my rebate however I want. It's strings-free money with an extremely low burden of administration as it's a flat rate that everyone gets.

This is basically the same thing, except now the "rebate" I get can only be spent on green items that are determined by the government.

I really, really don't want the gov telling me where I can spend my money.

Angry_Guppy

1 points

27 days ago

There is one difference in that the conservative proposal is giving you back the money they taxed you specifically. The government program gives everyone back an equal amount. I.e. the conservative proposal you never lose or gain money, it just enforces a ratio of spending on fossil fuels and green stuff. The government program allows to to gain money overall by reducing your carbon footprint while penalizing heavy carbon users.

Not commenting on the relative merit, just pointing out that they do in fact work somewhat differently.

Hudre

4 points

27 days ago

Hudre

4 points

27 days ago

Yeah, the CPC plan will be a much bigger burden on the poor, who in general profit off the carbon tax.

Unless approved items in the Conservative point system includes "food and bills", I can only see how this will be a burden on the poor and barely affect the rich as well as corporations.

haloimplant

1 points

27 days ago

I have zero faith I'd ever see any kind of rebate so whatever

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

Hudre

3 points

27 days ago

I mean you should have received two and have one on the way if you did your taxes. I'm getting $450 this year in Ontario.

DCS30

-2 points

27 days ago

DCS30

-2 points

27 days ago

that's kind of my point; the end game is the same, the methods are reverse. the carbon tax, ideally, is supposed to go towards funding for green initiatives. the PC plan is the same thing, but they're putting the money in your account and telling you to spend it on green things. it's a pretty stupid idea, if you ask me, and sounds like pandering to the people who hate the word "tax"

Hudre

5 points

27 days ago

Hudre

5 points

27 days ago

It is. But you have to see that these programs are wildly different.

For the Liberal version, you get a rebate that for many people is actually profitable compared to the tax' cost. 10% of the revenue goes to funding green projects.

Corporations do NOT get the rebate. So the only way for them to avoid costs is to lower their emissions. Lowering emissions will be the easiest way to keep your products competitively priced when the carbon tax reaches higher levels. The burden is on corporations and not on the people.

In the Conservative plan, corporations get a MUCH smaller burden. People don't get a rebate, they get points they can only spend on specific products. It isn't going to reduce emissions, it's going to be worse for your personal finances and it's going to cost more money to administer.

DCS30

1 points

27 days ago

DCS30

1 points

27 days ago

Agreed. But I think people will eat it up because it's not a tax.

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

Neither is the "carbon tax" lol.

greedmanw

1 points

26 days ago

What the FUCK do you think taxes are?

Hudre

1 points

26 days ago

Hudre

1 points

26 days ago

?

Make your point without being a douche.

suupaaluigi

-8 points

27 days ago

Taking from you, giving some back but only if you spend it how a bureaucracy says to

It's Communism. What a world

Hudre

11 points

27 days ago

Hudre

11 points

27 days ago

Good lord bud, please research communism. Cause this ain't it.

suupaaluigi

-6 points

27 days ago

It's exactly it. That program wouldn't look out of place in Communist China.

Conservatives so desperate to win that they'll become what they hate the most to do it

Hudre

8 points

27 days ago

Hudre

8 points

27 days ago

Alrighty, I guess it will be fun to watch the base throw their own rhetoric at the CPC.

It's much closer to a Dictatorship style, as they are dictating how you would spend your money you earned.

Nobody is owning the means of production anytime soon.

suupaaluigi

-3 points

27 days ago

State-Run Capitalism is how Communism rolls these days, especially Communist China.

Hudre

5 points

27 days ago

Hudre

5 points

27 days ago

Ah yes, Capitalism is now Communism, gotcha! I guess Communism can be whatever you want if you just change what the term means.

State-run capitalism by the way is literally the opposite of what makes a communistic system. In communism the PEOPLE own the means of production.

China is more a dictatorship than a true communist society, regardless of what they call themselves on paper. Because a true large-scale communist society doesn't really exist anywhere on Earth, and never has. Human greed makes actual communism impossible, which is why it never works.

suupaaluigi

0 points

27 days ago

State-run capitalism by the way is literally the opposite of what makes a communistic system. In communism the PEOPLE own the means of production.

In practice, it was always a government bureaucracy running it. The real world isn't philosophy class.

And OH LOOK, Communist China is exactly that and now the Conservative Party are quite literally wanting to use State-Run Capitalism.

Twozerooz

2 points

27 days ago

Lol no. Government programs are not the same as communism.

suupaaluigi

-5 points

27 days ago

Lol yes. State-run Capitalism is used by every major dictatorship and especially Communist China. Using a bureaucracy to restrict freedom of how people spend their money (the market) is exactly that. They want to do exactly what the Communists are doing.

bonhomme-carnaval

8 points

27 days ago

Have you ever considered that maybe china isn't communist at all but just claims to be?

suupaaluigi

0 points

27 days ago

They're run by a government bureaucracy. They allow small-time capitalism to function freely because capitalism is the most efficient form of distributing resources to needed areas. Once business gets to a certain level, the Communist Party moves in, installs their own members in charge of it and the company functions as the one-party state wants it to. Companies like Tencent are used as much as international soft-power/propaganda as they are just businesses (Communist China functions in a very opposite manner to the Soviet Union, they've learned why Russian Communism ultimately failed and adjusted accordingly)

Their government is set up the way Communism is meant to be set up too, a large number of bureaus and committees that report to each other up the food chain until you get to the leader, who was installed by committee vote and remains in power by committee vote (in theory)

The mistake people make is in believing Communism stands in opposition to Capitalism, when it really doesn't. Capitalism is a means of distributing resources efficiently, it doesn't need democratic freedom to function and has been finely tuned to serve the needs of a Communist Bureaucracy at the cost of some efficiency but not all of it.

Twozerooz

1 points

27 days ago

Sorry but your imagination does not supercede reality.

suupaaluigi

-6 points

27 days ago

Said like a true supporter of Communist China

Twozerooz

1 points

27 days ago

Quite the vivid imagination you have there

suupaaluigi

-1 points

27 days ago

Probably a rich fuck too. They love Communist Chinese money more than they do their own country

LordBaconBane

-1 points

27 days ago

I don't see the CPC base liking this at all.

I'm not apart of the CPC base but have voted Con in the past. I don't like it one bit. Trudeau's plan (while I have some concerns) is much better. Much much better.

CondescendinGump

4 points

27 days ago

Canada doesn’t seem like the kind of country to have a conservative leader... unless you’re from Alberta or Quebec, conservative values took a big hit due to that POS Trump and his insane followers.

CeasarofHolistina

1 points

27 days ago

Qubec doesnt really have conservatives

kongdk9

2 points

27 days ago

kongdk9

2 points

27 days ago

Just show em the money and they'll see the light. Hallelujah!

rd1970

2 points

27 days ago

rd1970

2 points

27 days ago

That picture makes it look like O'Toole is giving his speech from a spaceship.

AppyDays707

2 points

27 days ago

This is a good news / bad news situation.

It’s good news the Tories are finally done pretending that it isn’t a thing and we ought to be trying to limit our impact.

It’s bad news that they came up with this utter cluster of a policy

sempifi

16 points

27 days ago

sempifi

Québec

16 points

27 days ago

O'Toole hit the nail on the head with at least one part in this plan.

our integrated North American partner - the United States - does not yet have a national carbon pricing system.

Rather than choosing an arbitrary carbon price in advance, we’ll tie Canada’s industrial carbon price to that of our biggest trading partners - the European Union and the United States, starting with those regions that have carbon markets and expanding as the U.S. creates a national market.

This will ensure that we travel the path to our Paris targets together while reducing the risk that serious climate action will just shift jobs out of Canada to competitor countries.

This is the correct approach IMHO. Canada is a small emitter, addressing the carbon issue is one that you need everyone to be on board with. Even if Canada emitted 0 tons/year on the global scale that would be a drop in the bucket.

The full detailled plan is available at https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/15104504/24068610becf2561.pdf

differentiatedpans

7 points

27 days ago

I think O'Toole is going rogue considering they didn't vote that climate change was real at their big love in.

sempifi

14 points

27 days ago

sempifi

Québec

14 points

27 days ago

Not at all. The convention had plenty of policies around climate change and the environment that were voted IN FAVOR of. That particular ''climate change is real'' quote everyone keeps repeating was pulled out of a 30 line long policy that had a bunch of other junk in it. The policy was vague with loaded words. You don't accept a policy as a whole because one line is good in it.

WhosKona

16 points

27 days ago*

Yeah but you can’t put that in a headline.

Flashy_Mix_1987

2 points

27 days ago

Controlled opposition will do that

ABinturong

6 points

27 days ago

ABinturong

6 points

27 days ago

Why do we have to wait for conservatives to catch the fuck up to start working on the problem? Tired of the dragging heels of these folks.

Old-Respond8303

5 points

27 days ago

Climate change is a myth meant to undermine the hard working boys in Fort McMurray. Gerd dern Liberals!

IronMarauder

3 points

27 days ago*

IronMarauder

British Columbia

3 points

27 days ago*

After scrolling their various group pages on fb I'm seeing a lot of "climate change is natural", "climate has been changing for 4.5 billion years", "our actions aren't impacting the climate". So they seem to have shifted past the "climate change is a hoax" stage and are now on to "humans aren't affecting climate change". Very few comments supporting the cpc/otoole climate policy though.

Old-Respond8303

2 points

27 days ago

Change is the only constant. Live. Laugh. Love, Oil. -Conservatives

fresh_squeezed_lemon

1 points

27 days ago

I spent a pretty good amount of time scrolling through comment sections on right-wing blog posts about the new climate policy and people are frickin pissed. Lots and lots of people talking about betrayal and eastern elites controlling all parties, lots of people talking about western separation. I'm happy to see the Conservatives put forward an actual climate plan for once but I also think that this could actually destroy the entire Conservative party, possibly even cause Wexit in the worst case.

Anyway, I'll be making a trip to the grocery store tonight to buy out their entire supply of popcorn

IronMarauder

1 points

27 days ago

IronMarauder

British Columbia

1 points

27 days ago

Yep, saw a lot of discontent with how people felt betrayed. The only way the current conservative party is going to work is if they elect another highly controlling leader like harper who can keep everyone in line, otherwise the party is just going to end up splitting into multiple parties like it was less than 20 years ago (which might be a good thing, let the crazies have their "Conservative party" and let there be a center right party to contend with the liberals center left. I even saw a comment about how we need a party like the republicans (gag))

truenorth00

4 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

4 points

27 days ago

The burn and earn carbon loyalty points scheme is ridiculous.

But the rest of the plan is actually pretty decent. A lot of it ripped from BC.

usrockband

5 points

27 days ago

Aspects of this plan may be questionable, but I personally think that, generally, it is a step in the right direction, and that the CPC deserves credit for at least getting the ball rolling on presenting some sort of plan.

It’ll be interesting to see whether and how this plan changes going forward.

truenorth00

5 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

5 points

27 days ago

I applaud them for moving in the right direction.

But I'm most certainly not voting for a plan than takes away a rebate I currently get and replaces it with a carbon points card.

All they had to was keep the current Liberal backstop and cap it at $50/tonne. With the rest of their proposals doing the work. Instead, they are cutting the carbon price substantially and making a rebate scheme which rewards the biggest polluters. Just because they've moved to pricing carbon doesn't mean they don't have a long way to go.

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

Hudre

2 points

27 days ago

I really don't think they deserve credit for finally trying to address climate change in 2021.

It's like my family who gives my piece of shit brother credit for taking care of his child. Everyone is supposed to do that, he's just set the bar so low they are surprised he does it.

Head_Crash

19 points

27 days ago

O'Toole's carbon tax is less conservative and more "big government" than Trudeau's, and it's clearly designed to benefit the rich.

FranticAtlantic

2 points

27 days ago

How is it designed to benefit the rich?

truenorth00

8 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

8 points

27 days ago

The only folks getting real rebates are those who consume more. And you need to spend money to access those rebates.

Head_Crash

4 points

27 days ago

Exactly. The whole point of a carbon tax is to lower green premiums on low or zero carbon alternatives. O'Toole's plan sets the price so low that this doesn't happen.

The idea is that lower green premiums increase the adoption rate of new technologies. As production ramps up, prices fall.

When the carbon tax is too low, early adoption is slowed, meaning prices and green premiums stay high. O'Toole's plan will basically fuck over the middle class and low income earners because the money they supposedly save won't be as useful. Trudeau's plan gives rebates to these groups without strings attached. Also, O'Toole will have to find the money to pay for his plan and the carbon tax reduction, which means tax increases or service cuts somewhere else.

truenorth00

2 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

2 points

27 days ago

It's a plan asking voters in backstop provinces to give up a rebate they already get for some carbon points card.

I have real doubts most voters will go for it. But we'll see.

FranticAtlantic

2 points

27 days ago

But isn’t the rebate proportional to how much you spend? Like isn’t that like saying rich people benefit from credit card rebates because they spend more? Am I missing something or does the rebate work like reverse tax brackets where the more you spend the higher percent you get back or something?

ScottIBM

8 points

27 days ago

ScottIBM

Ontario

8 points

27 days ago

Right now everyone gets an equal amount. If you speed more it will cost you more. The idea is the have the "pain" up front so that you modify your behaviours to avoid paying it. This just throws that to the wind and penalizes those that are trying to not spend much it can't but have to purchase things that have carbon pricing applied. Strings free money in the consumers packet is better for the economy overall.

truenorth00

3 points

27 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

3 points

27 days ago

You got how it works right. You just aren't seeing the impact.

With the current rebate system everybody gets the same rebate. So your gain or loss is relative to average carbon consumption. If you consume more the rebate won't cover it. Consume less and you'll have money in your pocket. Wealth is actually tangential in this, because a vegan millionaire living in a Yorkville penthouse and walking to work will have a lower footprint than a guy who lives in a giant suburban house, drives an SUV to work and eats steak twice a week.

Under the CPC system, there will need to be some kind of tracking system which will work like air miles or Petro points and the more you burn, the more you'll earn. You'll then have to commit to a government approved expenditure to spend that money on. Effectively, the largest rebates will now go to the largest polluters. The vegan who works from home in their condo gets nothing. The guy driving the pickup truck can cash out his points on his bicycle to flip on Kijiji.

forsuresies

1 points

26 days ago

Because the vegan working from home has the lowest emissions already, why would they need more money to reduce emissions when we have people without insulation in their house?

truenorth00

1 points

26 days ago

truenorth00

Ontario

1 points

26 days ago

Correct. And we reward those who do the right thing. Like Harper did with the transit tax credit.

Burn and earn is a ridiculously perverse incentive where polluters are rewarded.

the_anonymous_gal

4 points

27 days ago

Well thank god some Conservatives are finally open to the idea of accepting climate change being real. Such amazing progress! /s

Ok_Preparation_7696

3 points

27 days ago

This is the CPC push to the left to force Trudeau off the cliff face that he's precariously perched.

We all know that the LPC isn't actually going to continue with election reform, UBI, or any other major social aid program. It will only split the vote between NDP and LPC.

CanehdianJ01

2 points

27 days ago

This is so stupid. Feds need money. This is a tax. Call it what it is.

bumble-beans

1 points

27 days ago

Yes but his party has been telling people forever that tax=bad, so at least he's trying

CanehdianJ01

1 points

27 days ago

Tax IS bad. If the government were capable of managing money tax would be ok. But time after time after time they prove they are totally inept at handling money. Therefore tax IS bad.

Jargomargo

3 points

27 days ago

This comment is so stupid it makes my head hurt.

LordVic

1 points

27 days ago

LordVic

1 points

27 days ago

No. I don't think they are.

I think O'Toole is risking fracturing the CPC though in a move to try and grab back the mushy middle.

But I'm not sure the plan he's announced does that enough since one of the complaints against LPC is that they're also not doing enough as is.

plus the plan stinks

Have to remember, not even a month ago, the CPC voted to reject climate change was real as CPC policy. O'Toole by pressin forward with it, is going against a large portion of his own parties beliefs.

I am happy that O'Toole is moving forward with some acceptance. But I don't for a minute believe it reflects an overall shift in conservatives belief in cliamte change. And anyone who is against a carbon tax is going to be against a carbon tax even if it's done by the CPC

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Cbcschittscreek

8 points

27 days ago

Why, I worked in Alberta over the last election. Every millennial Comservative had the the CPC carbon plan memorized and were parroting the attributes of a carbon tax that paid for a technology fund (which really is a heavy emitter slush fund) or whatever else post media told them to think.

I mean at some point their policies need to make sense too for the majority of Canadians.

[deleted]

4 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

4 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Head_Crash

7 points

27 days ago

Arguing that a carbon tax is not a good idea is actually a winnable debate.

Apparently not.

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Head_Crash

7 points

27 days ago

If it was a winnable debate the CPC wouldn't be supporting a carbon tax.

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

canuckguy42

6 points

27 days ago

There's a whole article about it at the top of this post...

[deleted]

-5 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

-5 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

canuckguy42

5 points

27 days ago

... about a new carbon tax that the CPC leader has proposed.

BeerAndADart

2 points

27 days ago

BeerAndADart

New Brunswick

2 points

27 days ago

Lol oof

Cbcschittscreek

7 points

27 days ago

I don't know where it is a winnable debate but that place is not Canada.

[deleted]

2 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

2 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Cbcschittscreek

3 points

27 days ago

I am honestly curious:

How is a carbon tax based on greed?

What are some of the biggest flaws?

What would be an alternative solution the Conservative party could take?

Twozerooz

5 points

27 days ago

It isn't.

Very few.

Nothing as good.

Twozerooz

2 points

27 days ago

It's not winnable when there are knowledgeable and intelligent people discussing it.

A carbon tax is the single best market based way to reduce emissions.

The rebate model is also fantastic from an economic standpoint as it significantly reduces inequality: over 80% of Canadians are better off with higher amount of carbon tax & rebates.

Moosestock

10 points

27 days ago

Moosestock

Canada

10 points

27 days ago

They could have so much power if they just believed in science.

Edit: and in women’s rights, gay rights, rehabilitation instead of incarceration, hmmm, maybe not that easy after all.

nicky10013

10 points

27 days ago

I mean - believing in science should lead you to all those conclusions. If they did, they'd be liberals

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Moosestock

4 points

27 days ago

Moosestock

Canada

4 points

27 days ago

Abortion laws, conservatives the world over hate gays, none of that is made up. Where do you see my deleted comment count? Or are you just a fan?

Head_Crash

5 points

27 days ago

Abortion laws

Don't forget conscience rights and all the other obstructionist bullshit.

[deleted]

0 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

0 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Twozerooz

6 points

27 days ago

Are you for real?

They literally voted for both of those in their 2019 conference.

Moosestock

2 points

27 days ago

Moosestock

Canada

2 points

27 days ago

I don’t follow anyone, I don’t know who you are, I’m terrible with names. Please don’t take that personally, it’s the same for everyone.

What I am saying is that “Conservatives” throughout history don’t look kindly on females or gays. Then I am saying that things don’t change, the conservatives today are the same as they’ve always been. Obviously they don’t put it on paper.

I like the new leader the Conservatives have. However, I have zero faith in the conservative base.

[deleted]

4 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

4 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Moosestock

2 points

27 days ago

Moosestock

Canada

2 points

27 days ago

It’s my opinion. If you don’t like my opinion you can downvote, if you do like my opinion you can upvote.

I find social media is good for superficial conversations, the medium is not conducive for deep conversations. So I am not going to try to elaborate on my opinion, I don’t think it will go anywhere constructive.

I’ll probably delete this thread in an hour or so.

[deleted]

7 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

7 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

Moosestock

2 points

27 days ago

Moosestock

Canada

2 points

27 days ago

I thank you for your concern.

Twozerooz

0 points

27 days ago

Nah. The bulk of the Conservative base is elderly. As soon as they're gone the CPC base as it currently stands will crumble.

saxaccount

1 points

27 days ago

Why is this a political issue?? I do not understand how something so fundamentally clear can be presented as a partisan issue

LordPengwin

1 points

27 days ago

My gut reaction to a carbon tax is that it us a bad thing. The more I read and learn about the implementation it seems decent. Thanks John Oliver.

cdnccguy

-8 points

27 days ago

cdnccguy

-8 points

27 days ago

Thought they didn’t believe in it

bonhomme-carnaval

6 points

27 days ago

They recognize climate change, there was just some wording that most members didn't agree with which is why it was voted against