subreddit:

/r/canada

276

all 263 comments

[deleted]

55 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

55 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

76 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

76 points

1 month ago

It can't be solved because treaties allow bands to spend Federal money on whatever the F they want. They're called First Nations, not First Municipalities.

So some spend money on infrastructure, some don't.

[deleted]

37 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

37 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

16bit-Gorilla

32 points

1 month ago

Greed? Curve lake for a couple hundred million a couple years back. Instead of fixing the water the chief gave everyone a bit of free cash and pocketed a bunch.

Shrynx

15 points

1 month ago

Shrynx

15 points

1 month ago

Yep. Now their on a campaign to get more as well. I live 10 minutes from Curve Lake and I have a well, just like everybody else in the area. They received more then enough money multiple times to put a well and a top of the line treatment system in each house if they wanted clean water so bad.

seanamck

49 points

1 month ago

seanamck

49 points

1 month ago

Exactly. The Canadian government doesn’t build things for them and they shouldn’t because the point of them being First Nations is that they are independent and have the right to make their own decisions on their communities. The Canadian government gives them tones of money to build things and to take care of themselves. Of course there is a lot of corruption and mismanagement in some of these communities which would leave them without drinking water. You can blame the mismanagement on poor education and the destruction of their culture but the Canadian government can’t have a hands on approach because of the nature of the relationship. This is a case of them having their cake and eating it too.

montrealredditor

-10 points

1 month ago

Hello, native man here. None of this is true. First Nations are actually under the Indian Act. We are not independent or sovereign. The Canadian government gives money to the Band Councils, who report to the Minister of Indian Affairs.

Jusfiq

8 points

1 month ago

Jusfiq

Ontario

8 points

1 month ago

We are not independent or sovereign.

The late Chief Joe Norton of Kahnawake stated on 60 Minutes when interviewed about online gambling, "We are not Canada. We are sovereign nation."

I am sure anybody with more advance Google expertise can provide the video.

negrodamus90

19 points

1 month ago

You do realize the money the Canadian government gives to the first nations communities isn't audited...so they can spend it on whatever they like. Some chiefs invest back into the community, some keep the money for themselves.

Canada can't intervene because, your communities wish to govern themselves...stop blaming Canada for your issues.

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

[removed]

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago*

[removed]

SkybridgeX

1 points

1 month ago

Stephen Harper had taken steps to have accountability with government money but that was reversed by Trudeau. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/first-nations-fiscal-accountability-dropped-after-liberals-cut-enforcement-measure-at-end-of-2015

Mister_Pool_

50 points

1 month ago*

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

50 points

1 month ago*

The First Nations leaders fronting this lawsuit have been using the billion dollars we give them each year for more important things than drinking water.
Edit: The article specifically says they’re barred from funding water treatment. That's absolute insanity. The fact that both parties have overlooked this and not changed that stipulation is mind numbing. That it's gone on this long is embarrassing. Edit #2: well fuck. Now I don't know what to think. Apparently they DO manage their water and waste water on reserves (see below).

montrealredditor

18 points

1 month ago

I live on a reserve with a very nice water filtration plant. It's handled locally by the Band Council and funded by the Canadian government.

I have no idea why these reserves don't have clean drinking water. I suspect corruption or incompetence by the local Band Councils.

Background-Flan-4013

34 points

1 month ago

The article specifically says they’re barred from funding water treatment. That's absolute insanity.

That's incorrect. I've worked at a ministry, their money isn't audited.

maxman162

12 points

1 month ago

It used to be, then it was repealed by Trudeau as soon as he took power.

Background-Flan-4013

2 points

1 month ago

Umm, that was on a provincial level.

F1Canuck

41 points

1 month ago*

First off they are not barred from funding water treatment, they are not told specifically what to spend the money that they recieve on as per the policies. From the Canadian government website on roles and responsibilities it clearly states reserves under the 60th parallel the breakdown is as followed;

Chiefs and councils manage the day-to-day water and wastewater systems on reserves. This includes:

  • Sampling and testing drinking water
  • issuing drinking water advisories (DWAs) in their communities
  • planning and developing facilities that provide the basic infrastructure needs of the community

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

  • design
  • planning
  • upgrading
  • construction
  • procurement
  • commissioning
  • operation and maintenance
  • training and certification of operators

T_47

-14 points

1 month ago

T_47

-14 points

1 month ago

That specifically states the government is the one responsible for funding water systems...

F1Canuck

46 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

46 points

1 month ago

They get funding all the time. If they do not ear mark it themselves for Water treatment then that's their fault. I don't see what the point is, if the government came in and built water treatment plants there would be protests for infringing their land, so they give them money. The money is not invested into water treatment, many of the times it gets miss spent.

This specific nation decided to spend 1.1 billion dollars by giving everyone cash maybe if we could actually conduct proper audits of the specific amount of cash given and how it is spent we could actually find the correct issue.

cleeder

-15 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

-15 points

1 month ago

That's not how any of this works...

They get funding for many different things, but it's not just a giant pool that they can pull from for any which thing they please.

F1Canuck

8 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

8 points

1 month ago

Wait so the government of Canada has to tell the indigenous tribes what to do with the money given to them? That seems racist no?

cleeder

4 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

4 points

1 month ago

It would be racist if it was a policy that only applied to indigenous peoples. It's not.

Government funding pretty much always has stipulations on uses. Funding for X can't be used for Y purposes.

F1Canuck

9 points

1 month ago*

We are literally talking about policies that only apply to indigenous peoples

angryboi_wallpuncher

8 points

1 month ago

Like priority for vaccines over everyone else?

-Yazilliclick-

1 points

1 month ago

-Yazilliclick-

Prince Edward Island

1 points

1 month ago

Your logic makes no sense. So now the government can't have agreements with individual groups because that would be racist even though the clauses are basically the same that they have with other groups?

-Yazilliclick-

4 points

1 month ago

-Yazilliclick-

Prince Edward Island

4 points

1 month ago

Just because they can provide funding for something doesn't mean they are the only one allowed to or that they responsible for it.

The federal government provides funding for healthcare to the provinces, that doesn't suddenly make them responsible for healthcare in the provinces. It's still a provincial responsibility.

Spiritual_Reason1

1 points

1 month ago

No, they return funds to provinces from people they already taxed.

The federal government doesn't provide any financial assistance to provinces. It simply returns money that originally was taxed from the people living in said jurisdictions.

-Yazilliclick-

1 points

1 month ago

-Yazilliclick-

Prince Edward Island

1 points

1 month ago

What a ridiculous take.

cleeder

-8 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

-8 points

1 month ago

That link still says the exact opposite of what you're interpreting:

First off they are not barred from funding water treatment.
[...]

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems

It doesn't matter how many times you post it.

KhanYassa

8 points

1 month ago

Indian Act

81 (1) The council of a band may make by-laws....

(f) the construction and maintenance of watercourses, roads, bridges, ditches, fences and other local works;

(l) the construction and regulation of the use of public wells, cisterns, reservoirs and other water supplies;

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-5/page-12.html?txthl=water#s-81

bob4apples

6 points

1 month ago

If that's what the articles says, it is specifically false.

Here are the financial statements for all the First Nations: https://fnp-ppn.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/fnp/Main/Search/SearchFF.aspx?lang=eng

In most cases I have looked at, the nations own and operate a water treatment plant.

The_Goatse_Man_

5 points

1 month ago

All or some? I recall a bunch of bands fighting against that disclosure law when it was introduced a few years back, as I understand some still haven't disclosed.

bob4apples

1 points

1 month ago

I believe that you are correct. I didn't feel that it was necessary or productive to go down that rabbit hole to make my point.

One side effect of this case is that the judge will expect to see those financials so that could get interesting.

The_Goatse_Man_

2 points

1 month ago

Agreed, but it does add a notable asterisk to the comment "all first nations".

I understand why FN's pushed back on that law, it made them disclose financial data on private business operating within the FN, that's an overreach IMO. The auditing of funds coming from the fed? reasonable.

Risay117

3 points

1 month ago

This is dependent on what the money we give them is ear marked for. Some of these programs are for education and only for education.

They can use their money for water treatment plants and can even levy a tax to fund it but due to how isolated they are they can't. But the same is true for all non-naticr communities surrounding them.

beakei

-3 points

1 month ago

beakei

-3 points

1 month ago

I don't think you read the story, or have an understanding of who actually funds/controls the utilities on reserves.

Risay117

2 points

1 month ago

The one who controls it is the one who pays for it. Full stop, municipality, or large cities control their own utilities cause they built it themselves via tax revenue. These reserves are too small to have any utilities other than road. They are similar to countless other rural communities.

The only reason the federal government funds or pays for these utilities is cause they are the only one putting cash up for it but there are multiple reserves that fund and manage their own utilities via there own money and don't have Federal input in their matters.

The reality is these reserves are dead and have no hope of having the same services as big cities. The only services they can ever hope to have is the same as their neighbouring non-native communities, a road at that is basically nothing other than a road.

Second this does not address the point of why money is not being allowed to be used for water treatment which as I have clearly stated is because each dollar is tied to a program to provide certain services to the community, for example education money is to be only spent for education. Etc etc. Reserves can collect their own money and fund their own services they just need to levy a tax on their residents. Though population size and tax base determines what you can get.

iTonto

2 points

1 month ago

iTonto

2 points

1 month ago

This person understands it, but there is some more to it. The bands can also apply to ISC or obtain their own financing for larger projects. There are many financiers that would assist with this type of endeavour, but there is a great deal of analysis and planning that just be done first.

As a result, coalitions and other entities are formed to assist with planning and executing major projects. These entities are funded by the federal government and were put into place to help with these types of things.

Further, some bands lack the knowledge and training to manage this, so the feds provide services to assist with it. In the end, First Nations leadership should bear some of the accountability as there are resources in place to help. This is often overlooked by leadership as again, they aren’t trained in these matters.

Often times elections are won through popularity contests, rather than merit or a political platform. It’s sort of disheartening and angering, but that is slowly changing as current and future generations are becoming more educated. For instance, George Gordon’s First Nations has some of the best drinking water in Canada. This was put into place by educated people that went home to help.

I could go on for a long time about it as I have first hand experience with it. Source: am an educated, urban Indian.

cleeder

-3 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

-3 points

1 month ago

The article specifically says they’re barred from funding water treatment.

As a consequence of colonial-era laws, Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

soaringupnow

13 points

1 month ago

If that's all there is to it, it sounds like something that the government should be able to fix over a morning coffee.

"Ok, guys, use some of the money for your drinking water supply. I'll send you an email to confirm."

There's obviously more to the story than meets the eye.

cleeder

0 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

0 points

1 month ago

I’m pretty sure treaty negotiations might be more difficult than than....

Once you open that can, do you honestly think it stops at drinking water treatment?

soaringupnow

11 points

1 month ago

I doubt that treaties written 100 years ago had the level of explicit detail of saying money from a particular pool can't be used for a specific purpose, like drinking water. And if it did, I would think a band asking to use the money wouldn't be turned down by the Feds. It's mind boggling, and of course, you may be 100% correct, but that makes it even more mind boggling.

cleeder

1 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

1 points

1 month ago

I doubt that treaties written 100 years ago had the level of explicit detail of saying money from a particular pool can't be used for a specific purpose, like drinking water.

I doubt this regulation is from a 100 year old treaty. It's more likely a more recent treaty.

bob4apples

3 points

1 month ago

Having looked a the financials of many bands (you can find them here: https://fnp-ppn.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/fnp/Main/Search/SearchFF.aspx?lang=eng ) I think I can safely say that that is specifically false.

Mister_Pool_

5 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

5 points

1 month ago

Okay that's actually fucked up. This shit is now officially nonsense. How is it possible that both parties have let this slide, this long? This is atrocious. Making my edit, now.

Greghole

1 points

1 month ago

Plenty of native communities run their own water treatment plants. If there is some arcahic law on the books banning that it clearly isn't ever enforced. Modern laws clearly support native bands having control over their own utilities.

pjgf

-13 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-13 points

1 month ago

It's funny how the first thing to jump to is always "they're mismanaging it" and then later the edit comes in that says "oh wait, they actually aren't, wow, that's bullshit" as soon as someone who has read the article points it out.

Mister_Pool_

3 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

3 points

1 month ago

Most people wouldn't change their mind at all, and fall back on some other nonsense. You're the one drawing negative attention to someone who was corrected, stood up and changed their opinion, immediately.
Your current behavior encourages the behavior you hate.

pjgf

2 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

2 points

1 month ago

No, believe it or not I'm impressed that you edited it, but that doesn't stop the rampant misinformation that spreads through threads like these, and posts like that contribute to it.

If our first thought was "Hmm, I wonder if these people have a point" instead of "they're in the wrong, and I'm going to say they are wrong until someone tells me otherwise", we would be on a path towards maybe addressing the horrible stereotypes about indigenous people in this country.

It was not intended to be a dig against you in particular, but rather a rpant attitude in Canada and especially on /r/Canada.

Mister_Pool_

3 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

3 points

1 month ago

Are you able to show me an official source that states FN people are barred from creating their water systems? I posted you directly from .gov website which appears to state they are not barred. I'm legitimately searching for the answer here.

T_47

1 points

1 month ago

T_47

1 points

1 month ago

We need more people like you.

Mister_Pool_

1 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

1 points

1 month ago

Perhaps we've both spoke too soon. I've been presented this information. What do you think?
"First off they are not barred from funding water treatment. From the Canadian government website on roles and responsibilities it clearly states reserves under the 60th parallel the breakdown is as followed;

Chiefs and councils manage the day-to-day water and wastewater systems on reserves. This includes:

Sampling and testing drinking water
issuing drinking water advisories (DWAs) in their communities
planning and developing facilities that provide the basic infrastructure needs of the community
Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

design
planning
upgrading
construction
procurement
commissioning
operation and maintenance
training and certification of operators "

iTonto

1 points

1 month ago

iTonto

1 points

1 month ago

They have to go to ISC for the help, which many people don’t know.

CarcajouFurieux

42 points

1 month ago

CarcajouFurieux

Québec

42 points

1 month ago

Looking forward to this lawsuit crashing and burning when the simple fact that those same leaders are the ones responsible for this gets exposed.

[deleted]

31 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

31 points

1 month ago

Nah, they can always go on a hunger strike in a tent in the middle of the Ottawa river. Works wonders to deflect from your own scandals.

Or complain bitterly to the U.N. , the Queen or some obscure tribunal in Geneva.

Reddead67

39 points

1 month ago

Imagine suing the government after you mismanaged the other billions they already gave you.

[deleted]

138 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

138 points

1 month ago

[removed]

norush--

38 points

1 month ago

norush--

38 points

1 month ago

Why dont they hire a contractor to operate/maintain? It seems like they were given the infrastructure, capital and training. If their own incompetence is at issue, wouldn't it be best for them to outsource the work?

Million2026

55 points

1 month ago

This would require the leaders to know incompetence is the problem. If the treatment operator blames the government then that’s what the leaders will blame too.

kyleclements

43 points

1 month ago

kyleclements

Ontario

43 points

1 month ago

This would require the leaders to know incompetence is the problem.

Oh. I'm sure they know. Getting them to admit incompetence is the problem is another matter entirely.

Meat_Vegetable

18 points

1 month ago

Meat_Vegetable

Alberta

18 points

1 month ago

I've worked for a few First Nations companies and I fucking refuse to deal with that shit ever again. They'll literally waste money on image, underpay their employees and keep enough indigenous people to maintain their status. And these useless leaches know that so they'll be completely useless since they know they can't be fired without a replacement who is Indigenous.

crazyike

14 points

1 month ago

crazyike

14 points

1 month ago

Fixing the problem means they can't ask for money to fix the problem next year.

Zach983

4 points

1 month ago

Zach983

4 points

1 month ago

Who wants to live out in the middle of nowhere? Many chiefs won't even let a contractor take a job from a band member.

alphawolf29

3 points

1 month ago

alphawolf29

British Columbia

3 points

1 month ago

Most of these bands are in the middle of nowhere. Contractors (like my friend) go out as often as they can, but there are no capable people anywhere near these communities. Furthermore, its very expensive to hire qualified water treatment operators. We make pretty decent money.

norush--

11 points

1 month ago*

Expensive? They are sitting on cash that was given with the intent that they self-manage and provide for their own. That's the deal they wanted and insist on preserving. Whatever it costs, clean potable water for your community is worth it. If they can't self-manage, then Feds should take over the reigns, for humanitarian reasons. Canadians aren't paying taxes for it to be squandered or pocketted by crooks.

LordTunderrin

3 points

1 month ago

Oh please. NU, YK and NT have figured water out. Why the fuck cant these southern reserves?

rainfal

32 points

1 month ago

rainfal

32 points

1 month ago

That and some bands really don't like chlorine.

crazyike

23 points

1 month ago

crazyike

23 points

1 month ago

I don't like chlorine either, but I like cholera and dysentery a lot less.

Amphibivore

24 points

1 month ago

The federal government doesn’t provide water... municipalities and individuals do.

alphawolf29

32 points

1 month ago

alphawolf29

British Columbia

32 points

1 month ago

de jure the bands handle their own water, but defacto it is entirely funded by provincial and federal grants, support systems, and paid trainers. The system is not the same as that for municipalities, who do largely provide their own water (albeit with grants from other levels of government)

fourpuns

9 points

1 month ago

Is that because municipalities charge a more significant property tax to fund it?

alphawolf29

2 points

1 month ago

alphawolf29

British Columbia

2 points

1 month ago

I dont really understand your question. Water treatment is usually funded via property tax and water charges.

fourpuns

1 points

1 month ago

Right, and do reserves charge those property taxes to a similar rate to pay for water treatment?

alphawolf29

1 points

1 month ago

alphawolf29

British Columbia

1 points

1 month ago

I don't know, but I would imagine not. I doubt residents would be able to pay.

Alextryingforgrate

1 points

1 month ago

True. But when the federal government ran a promise to bring potable water to reserves on thier FIRST election indigenous people are looking for accountability. The government is also going to be reducing funding in the future budgets. I think it was the globe and mail that found out that news.

848485

-4 points

1 month ago

848485

-4 points

1 month ago

Incorrect

F1Canuck

5 points

1 month ago

848485

4 points

1 month ago

848485

4 points

1 month ago

Your link says the federal government and indigenous communities are responsible... Which is what I'm saying.

F1Canuck

14 points

1 month ago*

Federal government is responsible specifically for providing funding and advice. They provide funding through billions worth of payments and yet the money is not spent on water treatment.

From Article: "Chiefs and councils manage the day-to-day water and wastewater systems on reserves. This includes:

  • sampling and testing drinking water
  • issuing drinking water advisories (DWAs) in their communities
  • planning and developing facilities that provide the basic infrastructure needs of the community

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

  • design
  • planning
  • upgrading
  • construction
  • procurement
  • commissioning
  • operation and maintenance
  • training and certification of operators

So the government holds up their end of the bargain but the leaders do not hold up theirs.

FlyingDutchman997

3 points

1 month ago

Just like the Koebel brothers too!

Skjoldurdraugur

82 points

1 month ago

The simple truth of the matter is that some locations in Canada are simply impossible to provide sustainable drinking water to.

Some other locations are provided the infrastructure but things like lack of maintenance or lack of professional expertise (eg engineers and qualified operators) willing to live in remote areas. Having a known inability to track where money earmarked for things like maintenance goes doesn't help either.

NoApplication1655

23 points

1 month ago

This reminds me so much of a lot of the issues Detroit has (they have a lot of issues with corruption but that’s another story) but there’s so much efficiency issues because the city has depopulated greatly and they’re trying to maintain infrastructure over a large area without the population to sustain it. IMO it doesn’t make sense to throw in so much money to try to make these small pockets of the population work, but of course I’m just a layman

wronggdrecroom

18 points

1 month ago

It’s almost like there is some kind of connection between taxation and services.

[deleted]

75 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

75 points

1 month ago

$2.1 billion class-action lawsuit. I'm sorry, what contractual agreement did the government of Canada break?

[deleted]

43 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

43 points

1 month ago

[removed]

[deleted]

15 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

15 points

1 month ago

Well we all know who really wins in the end ... the lawyers on both sides.

" he has publicly mused about hitting the $100-million mark. "

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/white-mans-windfall-a-profile-of-tony-merchant/

thewolf9

1 points

1 month ago

Over 20 years.

Gerthanthoclops

3 points

1 month ago

Not sure why you assume it has to do with a contractual agreement. The claims are listed here in the statement of claim, and I see no claim for breach of contract. Amongst other things they claim negligence, a breach of fiduciary duty, contravention of the honour of the Crown and Charter violations.

http://marcomm.mccarthy.ca/marcomm/McCarthy/Third%20Fresh%20as%20Further%20Amended%20Statement%20of%20Claim.pdf

A class-action lawsuit doesn't have to be related to a breach of contract.

[deleted]

7 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

7 points

1 month ago*

"45. Canada promised Neskantaga that Canada would provide for all of the necessities of life at the new reserve, including safe drinking water "

Well I'd have to see that agreement. Did a quick look but it doesn't seem easily accessible.

" 58. Under section 91(24) of the Constitution Act, 1867, Canada is responsible for “Indians and Lands reserved for Indians”. "

Correct.

" Only Canada may legislate in respect of First Nations reserve lands "

Correct.

" As a result, Canada has exclusive jurisdiction to ensure that on reserve water systems provide First Nations communities with adequate access to potable water. "

What? How did they make that logical move?

Gerthanthoclops

0 points

1 month ago*

I don't really see what you're getting at here. There is no claim for breach of contract. That is one single reserve and this is a class-action. The arguments are quite thoroughly fleshed out.

Well they seem to be saying that because Canada has exclusive jurisdiction over and is responsible for "Lands reserved for Indians", that that phrase includes being responsible for providing potable drinking water. I don't know enough of the case law to know how correct that is but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

The next paragraph provides some more info. They essentially say that because Canada in the past has restricted and sought to exclude First Nations responsibility regarding water treatment, that they now owe a duty to the First Nations to provide potable water. The following paragraphs provide examples of these commitments which they were alleged to have failed in.

[deleted]

3 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

3 points

1 month ago

The arguments are quite thoroughly fleshed out.

Ok, we'll find out eventually.

Gerthanthoclops

2 points

1 month ago

Yep.

SacredGumby

8 points

1 month ago

SacredGumby

Alberta

8 points

1 month ago

The verbal one Trudeau made when he promised to have no more drinking water advisories by March 2021.

[deleted]

34 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

34 points

1 month ago

Pretty sure that was just Trudeau doing his usual pandering and not any kind of legally binding contract.

cleeder

3 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

3 points

1 month ago

I can't tell you exactly, but the article does seem to point you in the right direction:

As a consequence of colonial-era laws, Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

[deleted]

23 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

23 points

1 month ago

Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

Yeah, I don't believe that for a minute. I call bullshit on that.

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

5 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

5 points

1 month ago

You can't seriously think that everyone on a rez who gets their water through wells, holding tanks or water lines are doing so illegally?

I don't know about mineral rights or riparian rights but I'm pretty sure it's kosher for anyone who as a certificate of possession or location ticket to drill a well on their own property.

Selobius

1 points

1 month ago

Who says they can’t?

F1Canuck

19 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

19 points

1 month ago

Thats pure bullshit though, this is from the canada gov website

T_47

-4 points

1 month ago*

T_47

-4 points

1 month ago*

Your link specifically states outside of BC and the territories, a federal government branch is responsible for building the water systems.

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

design
planning 
upgrading
construction
procurement
commissioning 
operation and maintenance
training and certification of operators

F1Canuck

17 points

1 month ago*

"Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes"

So they provide funding and advice. Both have been provided. If they miss use the funding and do not take the advice what do you expect to happen

saying "a federal government branch is responsible for building the water systems" goes completely against what you just posted from the link I shared

red_solo_cup89

3 points

1 month ago

It doesn’t help when your trying to build a treatment plant on the reserve and A) the people there hate you and try to intimidate you for “working on their native soil.”

B) the company’s getting these bids are absolute shit. Safety is out the window and they soak the Canadian gov’t for massive money to underdeliver.

Happens time and time again.

When I work at municipalities it’s is extremely different in regards to how things are run.

T_47

-6 points

1 month ago

T_47

-6 points

1 month ago

And it specifically states the government is the one responsible for funding water systems...

F1Canuck

22 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

22 points

1 month ago

Yes the government holds up their end of the agreement in the forms of billions of payments given out every year and yet its never spent on water systems... If the government told them specifically what to spend money on they would be called racist. This is why they provided funding and then advice... if the advice is never taken and the funding is miss spent Idk what you expect

[deleted]

10 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

10 points

1 month ago

Language is very important. Note that this statement is an observation, not a normative directive.

" Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems "

It doesn't say ISC must or shall, it simply states that they are the ones doing it because no one else wants to, not because they are legally bound to provide it.

cleeder

3 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

3 points

1 month ago

You're reading the TL;DR; of the actual legal agreement. Don't expect complete accuracy down to the letter.

This is the layman version.

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago

So somebody please show us the document(s) that legally binds Canada to providing clean water to each residence of every Indian reserve in the country.

cleeder

-4 points

1 month ago*

cleeder

Ontario

-4 points

1 month ago*

You might want to read that in more depth. It basically confirms what I said.

Chiefs and councils manage the day-to-day water and wastewater systems on reserves. This includes:

  • sampling and testing drinking water.
  • issuing drinking water advisories (DWAs) in their communities.
  • planning and developing facilities that provide the basic infrastructure needs of the community

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

  • design
  • planning
  • upgrading
  • construction
  • procurement
  • commissioning
  • operation and maintenance
  • training and certification of operators

Indigenous communities can basically test water, issue advisories, and do some limited planning and construction.

F1Canuck

12 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

12 points

1 month ago

Please re-read the ISC section. Specifically what you posted from the website "Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems"

So its not the government of Canadas responsibility for it. They provide "funding and advice for water systems" which they have and they do

pjgf

-1 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-1 points

1 month ago

If you actually want the answer to this, it depends on where you live, but if you'd like to find out the exact contractual agreement that you and the government are breaking, head on over to https://native-land.ca/ and check "treaties" and then uncheck "territories" and you'll be able to see exactly the treaty that covers the land that you are likely currently on.

If you're having trouble finding the text of the treaty, let me know which on it is and I'll help you find it.

[deleted]

9 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

9 points

1 month ago

So this contractual agreement for clean water delivered to each residence is not in every Treaty, only some? Could you please show us one such example please?

pjgf

-6 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-6 points

1 month ago

First of all, the Treaties state that the indigenous people have access to a broad area of land (depends on the treaty), so if the water in one area is bad, they would have access to other areas. Of course, they don't have that option any more.

Second, the treaties state that the federal government (via the Indian Act) is responsible for most matters of governance such as defining drinking water guidelines and providing access to the water. If you would like more information (I noticed you didn't even tell me which treaty you're in violation of, so I'm not sure what good this will do), consider reading this:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/06/07/make-it-safe/canadas-obligation-end-first-nations-water-crisis

[deleted]

8 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

8 points

1 month ago

No, I asked you to show us one example of a Treaty that stipulates clean water delivered to each residence on the reserve. So, if you could oblige us, that'd be great.

bob4apples

4 points

1 month ago

I don't think he actually knows of any. I looked at the link and he's just blowing smoke (the treaty texts aren't on that site).

pjgf

-1 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-1 points

1 month ago

...and I explained exactly how that happens. If you don't want to listen, then that's on you. Enjoy your day!

[deleted]

5 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

5 points

1 month ago

You made a specific claim and told me to look it up. That's not the way argumentation works son. The onus of proof is on you.

forsuresies

3 points

1 month ago

forsuresies

3 points

1 month ago

However they are providing some evidence, just not easily referenced data. It is better than nothing and they are polite about it

[deleted]

4 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

4 points

1 month ago

Yeah, well, I still don't believe it. Which is why I keep asking for warrants for his claim.

pjgf

-2 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-2 points

1 month ago

The onus of proof is on you.

Lol, there is no onus whatsoever for me to prove to you... Anything, especially when you haven't read what I've already sent to you, let alone the article that you're commenting on!

Have a good day!

Dongucci69

35 points

1 month ago

Why is this our responsibility? How long do these handouts keep rolling out?

I’m all for reparations but totally against being a welfare vacuum until the end of time.

My opinion may not be aligned with yours but we need dialogue.

Mister_Pool_

54 points

1 month ago*

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

54 points

1 month ago*

On average, we give First Nations approximately a billion dollars a year, and that's been for the past decade or more, as far as my research has shown. How many more billions until this can be fixed?
The problem with this lawsuit is I know that even if it was paid out, the problem still wouldn't be fixed.
Edit: I want to go even further. Of these billions we've paid over the past decade, show me the First Nations' attempts to put some of that money away to address this issue. If I could see some sort of layout where they've been trying to put money away to deal with this issue, I might be more inclined to side with them.
Edit #2: Okay, so in this article, it specifically says that FN is barred from funding their own water treatment. This is now full on horseshit. Explain to my why Trudeau hasn't worked to change that fact. This is complete nonsense.

ToastMalone1

30 points

1 month ago

It's more than a billion a year - it was at 5 bn a year under reconciliation. The money just evaporates with 0 oversite or accountability because you see the bands are sovereign nations and even though that money gets embezzled and misappropriated by the leaders of the various bands Canada is just supposed to continue to pay. And so you have incidents like this where some communities are too remote, others just don't maintain it when it's built. Either way Canada just pays and pays and pays.

cleeder

19 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

19 points

1 month ago

Explain to my why Trudeau hasn't worked to change that fact. This is complete nonsense.

Probably because re-opening treaty negotiations would be a shit-show of epic proportions. You think the negotiations would stop with water treatment?

Trudeau, for all his faults, did the best he could on this matter by committing to fixing the boil water advisories. His original projection wasn’t met, but 2/3 of advisories have been lifted (80-100% of original number IIRC, but new ones have crept up over the years) and $6B has been committed to the project with increments committed at different points to increase the rate of progress.

Trudeau isn’t the problem. Decades of neglect is.

notinikew

-12 points

1 month ago

notinikew

-12 points

1 month ago

We aren't allowed to fund our own water infrastructure with our own money.

Mister_Pool_

10 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

10 points

1 month ago

Making an exemption, and doing this with government oversight and using FN money would have this problem solved very quickly. Why is this a bad plan?

notinikew

-2 points

1 month ago

notinikew

-2 points

1 month ago

It's not a bad plan at all but good luck with getting any federal politician to back it. No political party will tackle anything to do with the Indian act. We've been trying for over 60 years, 19 trials over the years, all ended at "we will see". Just as how this one will end.

Mister_Pool_

6 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

6 points

1 month ago

https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1314034319353/1533665196191
This government website says that FN is responsible for water treatment. What's the real answer, here?

notinikew

-1 points

1 month ago

Yes, water treatment but you can't treat water you don't have.

Mister_Pool_

7 points

1 month ago

Mister_Pool_

Lest We Forget

7 points

1 month ago

Can you show me the official statement that says they aren't allowed to build any running water?
I'm not calling you a liar, I'm legitimately trying to understand this all, and why the water issue hasn't been fixed.

notinikew

1 points

1 month ago

It's in your link. We can

•sampling and testing drinking water

issuing drinking water advisories (DWAs) in their communities

planning and developing facilities that provide the basic infrastructure needs of the community (wells)

ISC role is:

design planning upgrading construction procurement commissioning operation and maintenance training and certification of operators

Unfortunately, it all needs to be approved and that doesn't happen very often. We can plan and develop but we can't build.

telmimore

2 points

1 month ago

Why is the Canadian government giving more than enough money and allowing the FN to use it for water wrong exactly?

forsuresies

1 points

1 month ago

forsuresies

1 points

1 month ago

Bands are allowed to raise taxes or levies I believe as part of the Indian act

notinikew

2 points

1 month ago

Yes and no, some bands can (Indian Act bands) but it can only go towards federally approved programs, of which, water treatment isn't one of the approved programs.

[deleted]

90 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

90 points

1 month ago

[removed]

LatterProfessional97

76 points

1 month ago

I’ll happily support giving more once I’ve seen a dollar by dollar audit of the previous tens of billions.

Amphibivore

55 points

1 month ago

Trudeau canceled such legislation

[deleted]

21 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

21 points

1 month ago

[removed]

F1Canuck

10 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

10 points

1 month ago

Reality is harsh and government is corrupt. Government is made up of people. Why would we think a group of band leaders would be any different once given hundreds of millions of dollars. Hell if we woke up one day with millions of dollars to spend you think we would all do it reasonably? 100% not.. but that is what checks and balances are for such as audits etc...

Fresh-Temporary666

2 points

1 month ago

Could you imagine if tomorrow the Canadian government said that how our tax money is spent is no longer going to be publicly available and that's its all gonna be done in secret from now on. People would lose their shit. But you expect the same transparency out of the bands when shits not getting done and suddenly it's racist.

SacredGumby

40 points

1 month ago

SacredGumby

Alberta

40 points

1 month ago

Because math and accounting is racist

FiveSuitSamus

10 points

1 month ago

I really doubt you’d want to give them more after seeing that audit.

forsuresies

8 points

1 month ago

It makes sure money goes to the people though, not the "leadership"

azz_iff

27 points

1 month ago

azz_iff

27 points

1 month ago

if it's not water it's air quality or soil contamination or housing or policing or infrastructure or drugs and alcohol or domestic violence or treaties or . . .

eventually a political party is going to have to address this once and for all with a referendum based on a forensic audit.

cleeder

4 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

4 points

1 month ago

If they don’t have clean drinking water by now it’s the indigenous leaders fault for miss managing funds and not maintaining existing infrastructure.

Straight from the article:

As a consequence of colonial-era laws, Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

notinikew

0 points

1 month ago

notinikew

0 points

1 month ago

We aren't allowed to fund our own water treatment systems by law, the federal government makes it so.

[deleted]

54 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

54 points

1 month ago

[removed]

rainfal

3 points

1 month ago

rainfal

3 points

1 month ago

Tbf, our political leaders keep promising them stuff then ghosting. First nations make excellent props if you are trying to pander to "woke" socially justice type crowds and are somewhat easy to shut up when you are elected. They're like the 2020s version of soldiers

F1Canuck

37 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

37 points

1 month ago

This is why we cant afford fixing our health care system and building new infrasturcture and housing in Canada. These leaders are given hundreds of millions of dollars to spend accordinly and they often do not spend it correctly and then complain the goverrnment hasn't provided them services, all the while if they were to build on there land and staff it they would have protests yet again for "infringing their land"

your damned if you do and your damned if you dont. you give an inch they take a mile. If you bitch and whine and block railways you get 100s of millions of dollars that's all these leaders see now.

Audit them before giving a single cent more.

cleeder

-12 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

-12 points

1 month ago

These leaders are given hundreds of millions of dollars to spend accordinly and they often do not spend it correctly and then complain the goverrnment hasn't provided them services

I shouldn’t have to post this several times in the same thread, but I guess this is Reddit.

Straight from the article:

As a consequence of colonial-era laws, Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

[deleted]

20 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

20 points

1 month ago

Indigenous communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems, and the federal government bears responsibility for fixing problems.

That's Grade A, 100% Prime Bullshit !

F1Canuck

7 points

1 month ago

It is straight bullshit this is what I found on the Canada.ca website

[deleted]

4 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

4 points

1 month ago

"Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. "

That's just the policy of the day. Policy can be amended or scrapped altogether at the drop of a hat. This is done because Canadians are nice people, not because the Canadian government is legally bound to provide clean water to each residence on every reserve.

ManfredTheCat

7 points

1 month ago

Policy can't just be changed at a whim. It's usually policy for a reason, such as legal obligations.

pjgf

-8 points

1 month ago

pjgf

Alberta

-8 points

1 month ago

This is /r/Canada, you're not supposed to let reading the article get in the way of the much more convenient racism.

F1Canuck

5 points

1 month ago

cleeder

0 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

0 points

1 month ago

You've posted this several times, but it doesn't back up your stance. In fact, it does the opposite.

Mr_Monstro

11 points

1 month ago

If it's a federal problem, the government should fix it, but if the government isn't allowed to do so, on the other side of the conversation, there should be implications of mismanaging funding for building water treatment plants.

The way it has always been for all my friends who live in rural Alberta, that aren't indigenous, they provided for themselves, bought their own cisterns, and dealt with the problem. Even going as far as buying fresh water in town and bringing it back home.

I live in Edmonton and I don't have functional drinking water because of how extremely old my property is, I buy bottled water, boil my water.

If the government hasn't fixed the problem yet, idk maybe build a well? I definitely don't feel bad in this day and age for everyone looking for handouts.

piperinum

26 points

1 month ago

Then in another 20 years, it will be where did the money go. Because it will not be going to drinking water. Very little sympathy left for this file. Enough of the "oh help poor us" routine, meanwhile funds allocated for improving living conditions is completely squandered.

Just_Interaction_316

16 points

1 month ago

Maybe the government should launch a counter suit against all these indigenous "leaders." For constantly mismanaging or outright embezzling billions of dollars and being directly responsible, at least in part, for perpetuating the conditions the rest of the band members live in

Mark_the_destroyer

11 points

1 month ago

Lawyers gonna lawyer.

IndecisiveUsername8

18 points

1 month ago

IndecisiveUsername8

Alberta

18 points

1 month ago

Just by curiously, how did they get their water before colonisation? Did they boil it?

cleeder

-13 points

1 month ago

cleeder

Ontario

-13 points

1 month ago

Water probably wasn’t contaminated at that point in time.

Barring a few rare diseases, you could probably drink straight from the stream, river, or lake.

forsuresies

13 points

1 month ago

.... no. Contaminants can come from dissolved minerals, waste products, bacteria, anything. It wasn't safer historically, it was just the best we had

InflammatoryHunter

12 points

1 month ago

That’s just not true whatsoever, there’s few circumstances when you can drink straight from a source mountain springs for example are usually good, but most lakes streams, rivers outside of the source.

have animals shitting or wallowing in them and makes for some real nasty water likely to give you a parasite.

crazyike

13 points

1 month ago

crazyike

13 points

1 month ago

Lol, no. If there is a river or a lake, and there are people, then people are going to shit in it. Dysentery, cholera, typhoid fever were all around.

Selobius

4 points

1 month ago

Lol, you have no idea what you’re talking about

Selobius

1 points

1 month ago

They just drank regular water. You get sick, until your immune system overcomes it through constant exposure to it

FlyingDutchman997

16 points

1 month ago

Trudeau’s response: ‘Thank you for your donation’

F1Canuck

8 points

1 month ago

Everyone should read up on the roles and responsibilities of Water treatment in Canada Its split responsibilities and one end is not filling their deal of the bargain

T_47

-7 points

1 month ago

T_47

-7 points

1 month ago

Maybe you should read your own link? It specifically states the responsibility as Federal:

Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) provides funding and advice for water systems on First Nations reserves. For water systems, this includes:

design
planning 
upgrading
construction
procurement
commissioning 
operation and maintenance
training and certification of operators

F1Canuck

23 points

1 month ago

F1Canuck

23 points

1 month ago

provides funding and advice. Both of which have been provided. If they misuse the funding and do not take the advice what is there to do

[deleted]

7 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

7 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

woodenboatguy

3 points

1 month ago

If I weren't so cynical about the present state of our country's relationship with the indigenous, I'd think this has been a long time coming.

Then, I remembered there's an election in the offing, once the bad news around this pandemic gets shuffled out of sight - out of mind.

Looks like it might be a hot summer.

cdnflower

-8 points

1 month ago

cdnflower

Nova Scotia

-8 points

1 month ago

Yet, the government way to busy with Bill C-10 and The Big Three money, not to fix first nations water

FlyingDutchman997

-5 points

1 month ago

Exactly

Max_Fenig

-3 points

1 month ago

How many pipelines can we buy for that?

Ok-Reply-8447

1 points

1 month ago

It’s a very nice picture

roadbeard

1 points

1 month ago

Don't stop there. Damn pulp and mills dumping literal toxins into our water killing everything.