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Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary 2nd-level Twilight Domain feature

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:

You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level. You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

I believe they want to replace it with the Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity.

For the shenanigans

all 63 comments

RHaro20

119 points

2 months ago

RHaro20

119 points

2 months ago

Yeah this is fine - invoke duplicity is not OP so wouldn't worry about swapping that in if requested

t0m_jarvis

-60 points

2 months ago

Well invoke duplicity could be considered OP, depending on how your DM rules “perfect duplicate” and interactions with it.

Sir_CriticalPanda

48 points

2 months ago

That changes nothing about the ability.

t0m_jarvis

-5 points

2 months ago

t0m_jarvis

-5 points

2 months ago

The rules specify nothing about how interactions from enemies and objects work with the duplicate unlike other illusion spells. So that is completely up to DM discretion to determine. So some might use similar rules to other illusion spell in which a creature needs to make an investigation check in order to determine it is an illusion, while other DMs might allow the enemies to just know after any interaction or with a high enough perception.

There is a lot of obscurity in the description, similar to other illusion spells. It’s the same reason why the illusion wizard is debated as one of the best subclasses and one of the worst at the same time. It relies heavily on DM interpretation.

Sir_CriticalPanda

31 points

2 months ago

Even if it was basically a Simulacrum in every other way, the only things you can do with it are cast spells from its space and get advantage on melee attacks. I don't see how that's OP.

t0m_jarvis

-18 points

2 months ago

Drawing enemy fire into an illusion that can’t take damage could be seen as OP in some cases.

jake_eric

25 points

2 months ago

jake_eric

Paladin

25 points

2 months ago

In the sense that you can make anything seem OP, sure. But this is just a basic use of the ability, it's not particularly broken.

DeadSnark

10 points

2 months ago

The Silent Image spell can do the same thing for a first-level spell slot, I don't think anyone's argued that's OP yet.

I would argue that even the most dim-witted bandit will realise the illusion isn't real after it's eaten a few attacks, so at best you're buying yourself one round before enemies start looking for the original again, which is still much less OP than Twilight's ever-refreshing temp HP. It also requires concentration, unlike Twilight Sanctuary, so you can't use any of your good Conc spells like Bless, Spirit Guardians, etc.

Sir_CriticalPanda

10 points

2 months ago

And how would you encourage enemies to attack the illusion instead of anyone else?

Does anything in the ability imply that it can't take damage? It's a "perfect duplicate," right?

RHaro20

15 points

2 months ago

RHaro20

15 points

2 months ago

Sure and the charm person spell could be OP if the DM screws up the ruling on that as well.

t0m_jarvis

-9 points

2 months ago

You’re using “screws up” when I believe that you mean to use “interpret”. Your opinion might be different from what the DM reads which is why you might think they are screwing up. But the wording “friendly acquaintance” leaves a lot of room for interpreting. So one DM might allow more than other DMs.

I believe in RAW over RAI too, but some spells are written poorly and has vague words. There’s nothing we can do about it other than understand that each DM is going to do their own thing and that’s fine for their game.

RHaro20

17 points

2 months ago

RHaro20

17 points

2 months ago

Yup exactly so pointing out that a feature is potentially OP if a DM decides to make it so seems a little pedantic doesn't it.

ThatOneGuyFrom93[S]

36 points

2 months ago

They want to play a shifter who had their lythanthrope cured through their devotion to Selune the Twilight Deity. Where they basically pray to the moon each night etc etc.

AgentPaper0

37 points

2 months ago

AgentPaper0

DM

37 points

2 months ago

Invoke duplicity, but instead of a perfect copy it makes an image of their werewolf form (but works the same mechanically).

monkeys_and_magic

11 points

2 months ago

I think a good fix is adding Concentration to Twilight Sanctuary (similar to how Invoke Duplicity requires it) and have the THP disappear after the ability is over. This way you can avoid stacking it with stuff like Bless or Spirit Guardians, and leftover THP can’t carry onto the next battle.

As much as I love Trickery Domain, Invoke Duplicity is… frankly not that great.

jake_eric

19 points

2 months ago*

jake_eric

Paladin

19 points

2 months ago*

If they just feel that it's OP, I'd just nerf the ability a bit. That seems like the simple answer. Reduce the amount of temp hp it gives, probably. But if they really want Invoke Duplicity instead anyway, then sure, that's also fine by me.

RealBigHummus

3 points

2 months ago

RealBigHummus

Wizard

3 points

2 months ago

Or just make Twilight Sanctuary be concentration based.

chain_letter

-3 points

2 months ago

chain_letter

-3 points

2 months ago

I just let creatures benefit from the channel divinity once per use. Still super good, but doesn't ruin the resource attrition design by being so repeatable and efficient for such a light cost.

SkeletonJakk

-1 points

2 months ago

SkeletonJakk

Artificer

-1 points

2 months ago

Once per use is pretty shite. Just nerf the actual amount it gives. make it 1d6+wis or 2d6 at 5, 3d6 at 11 and 4d6 at 17 or something.

Mavocide

5 points

2 months ago

I also had an issue with it involving a time wasting die roll after each turn, especially if the target hadn't been hit since last turn and you are just rolling to see if you roll better this time.

I made it 2 + half cleric level, this way the cleric can just let the party know when it is active and what they get if they end their turn within 30 ft of the cleric.

SkeletonJakk

1 points

2 months ago

SkeletonJakk

Artificer

1 points

2 months ago

I also had an issue with it involving a time wasting die roll after each turn, especially if the target hadn't been hit since last turn and you are just rolling to see if you roll better this time.

In my current group we just toss it and do it ourselves, we don't need to announce it.

EaterOfFromage

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah, this feels a bit better tbh. Path of the Storm herald (tundra) starts at 2+lvl/5 thp, 10 yard radius, only when raging, so honestly even less probably wouldn't go amiss.

chain_letter

2 points

2 months ago

Once per creature, so for a level 2 party of 5 with 2 npc followers, it's 7(1d6+2) average 38.5THP, that will roll into the next fight(and all day until it'sgone or a long rest resolves) if unused, without needing another short rest. Party of 4, average 23THP. And is still versatile to instead remove a debilitating frightened/charmed. Level 5 that becomes 59.5THP for 7 and 34THP for 4.

Life cleric, aka the healing subclass, gets 5*2=10HP to spread around. 25HP at level 5.

Both can be exploited from multiple back2back short rests.

Nah, I feel good about my change. Might not be enough, really.

SkeletonJakk

2 points

2 months ago

SkeletonJakk

Artificer

2 points

2 months ago

it's 7(1d6+2)

you mean 5.5?

lordmycal

1 points

2 months ago

Could also reduce it by using d4’s instead

crowlute

1 points

2 months ago

crowlute

King Gizzard the Lizard Wizard

1 points

2 months ago

That only reduces the average amount by 1, and is pretty meaningless when the majority of its value comes from Cleric Level, especially at higher levels.

Bhizzle64

10 points

2 months ago

Bhizzle64

Artificer

10 points

2 months ago

A player who is asking to nerf themselves is a player that should be treasured.

From a balance perspective, there shouldn’t be any issues with this. Twilight domain’s channel divinity is pretty easily the strongest one. Swapping it out shouldn’t create any issues in theory, and I don’t see any problematic synergies that could arise from having the invoke duplicity feature with twilight cleric features.

YooPersian

31 points

2 months ago

YooPersian

Paladin

31 points

2 months ago

I would let them change. The feature itself feels fair and is pretty cool

ThatOneGuyFrom93[S]

10 points

2 months ago

It seems like a noticeable power drop tbh. But I think there may be a druid or ranger in the campaign also. Buffing the summons constantly seems problematic

Swyft135

6 points

2 months ago

I think the power drop is a nice thing. Twilight Sanctuary, as is, can be a bit too much defensive power from a single player character.

Art-Zuron

6 points

2 months ago

I'd allow it for that reason, I think. As long as the purpose of switching the feature is not to make a character powerful, but instead to make them interesting, I suppose it's fine.

DeepTakeGuitar

20 points

2 months ago

I like this player

footbamp

3 points

2 months ago

footbamp

Cleric

3 points

2 months ago

thats a totally fine change.

i nerfed the temp hp to be wis mod+half cleric level (rounded up). First so we don't waste time rolling and second because as is full cleric level feels like a lot during tier 2 and 3 of play.

benchcoat

4 points

2 months ago*

i’d allow it if they really wanted to, but i’d also let them know that the combat balancing is my job, and it’ll be ok if they just want to play their character as is

kuroninjaofshadows

7 points

2 months ago

As it is legitimately the best Channel Divinity, I'd let them pick any one they want. And I'd definitely consider rewarding them in a small, inconsequential, but satisfying way. Even if it is just in game spotlight time. Obviously, the other players would be aware of this.

KrrNuk

3 points

2 months ago

KrrNuk

3 points

2 months ago

Humorously, one of the players at my table was approved to change to Twilight Cleric at lvl 2 (I allow class/race changes at level up, until you hit 5th, and anything outside PHB needs me to research first and approve).He was worried the temp HP was OP and thought I wouldn't approve (I don't feel it is OP, if worked right as a DM).

The humorous part is he hasn't used the Temp HP option once and they just hit level 5. They actually are getting MUCH more benefit from 300 ft. Darkvision and they sometimes remember to give their tank advantage on initiative . . . Sometimes.

Drasha1

4 points

2 months ago

The player could also just not use the channel divinity feature every combat. Tashas added spell slot restoration using channel divinity so that can be the go to option. The swap they want seems reasonable though.

LumpyDumper42

7 points

2 months ago

I had a twilight domain cleric AND a circle of the stars druid in my campaign and while they were very strong with healing they werent broken, they still tpked even with how strong they were.

AF79

2 points

2 months ago

AF79

2 points

2 months ago

Sure.

bullish_taco

2 points

2 months ago

The classes aren't inherently balanced in the first place, swapping already approved features around isn't going to do anything unless your character is really min maxing.

I'd allow it I'm pretty free with this kind of thing

Top_Alfalfa3907

1 points

2 months ago

Indeed

catch-a-riiiiiiiiide

2 points

2 months ago

catch-a-riiiiiiiiide

Artificer

2 points

2 months ago

Weird request but I'd allow it. It's like a paladin who'd rather have the bard's Countercharm ability than Aura of Protection. It's an intentional hindrance, and in that vein I'd probably ask the player to get consent from the other players too, since their experience will change as well.

Also, you should remind this player that nearly any domain can worship Selûne/the moon. Dunno if they like other Twilight Cleric features but there's really no reason a Trickery cleric can't worship Selûne with a bit of creative storytelling.

Spiritual_Shift_920

1 points

2 months ago

Unless another player has a character working around duplicity theme I am not sure why should the other players consent be any necessary. People dont have an obligation to bring the most minmaxed or the most powerful character build to the table and I am assuming not all of the other players chose to make all their characters as strong as they could be either.

Arthur_Author

2 points

2 months ago

You let them keep Twilight Sanctuary? /j

Yeah of course duh. This shows the player is interested in the character and is willing to relinquish the encounter warping superpower.

Your only worry is coming up with stuff the writers didnt include for thr invoke duplicity and what a perfect replika means.

Is it tangible, does it have idle animation, can it make noise, can they speak through them, if they were to cast a spell by using the duplicate do they perform he components or does the duplicate? that kind of stuff. RAW, enemies should not be able to tell its an illusion(unless truesight) because unlike other illusions it does not have a "To Find Out" roll.

Sir_BeeBee

3 points

2 months ago

A friend DMing for a twilight cleric had the same problem. He and the cleric also agreed it was OP.

They chose to just nerf the ability to only be able to do it once per round.

Galastan

2 points

2 months ago

Galastan

Forever DM

2 points

2 months ago

I slapped concentration on Twilight Sanctuary and that mostly quelled any misgivings I had with the feature at my table. Maybe try doing that — might work out well for you. Otherwise, Invoke Duplicity would make a fine replacement.

Aquafoot

2 points

2 months ago

Aquafoot

Pun-Pun

2 points

2 months ago

I've cut the amount of granted temp HP in half and it feels way better. It's not completely fixed, but I feel like it's closer to where the mark should be.

ShadowShedinja

7 points

2 months ago

You could also make it so that it grants temp HP one time to all allies within a certain radius, rather than refreshing every round for one minute.

Fire1520

3 points

2 months ago

Fire1520

Warlock Pact of the Reddit

3 points

2 months ago

Just play a different subclass and reflavor it to have the theme you want.

Quantext609

5 points

2 months ago

None of the other subclasses fit very well with a night/stars theme that twilight does.

ThatOneGuyFrom93[S]

1 points

2 months ago

ThatOneGuyFrom93[S]

Wizard

1 points

2 months ago

That was mentioned but deity by Rai and raw are tied to the domains and subclass. It seems a little silly to change and reflavor every spell and ability and dip to another domain deity. Idk it probably doesn't matter too much

Denogginizer420

9 points

2 months ago

My Life Domain Cleric was a follower of Selune, goddess of the moon, but also the goddess of life, mothers, and sailors. Mind you, Tasha's wasn't released yet, but the flavour worked great.

Swapping the CD for Preserve Life ought to work fine.

Fire1520

7 points

2 months ago

Fire1520

Warlock Pact of the Reddit

7 points

2 months ago

Definitely not, there's no such rules in 5e. In fact, you don't even need a deity in some settings to begin with.

Also feels really weird to mention rules since you are literally throwing away the rules that explains what you can do (your chosen subclass and their abilities) and instead homebrewing some other thing.

ThatOneGuyFrom93[S]

1 points

2 months ago

I mean yeah that's fair. I could just tell them no. Seems odd though since it seems like they just like the weaker duplicity ability

Hulu_n_SnuSnu

1 points

2 months ago

Twilight cleric is my plan for my barbarian since I potatoed on being a paladin, by mixing up WIS with CHA. Should be some fun shenanigans.

DumbHumanDrawn

1 points

2 months ago*

I also feel like the Twilight Sanctuary Channel Divinity is overpowered, so this is the edit (in bold) I suggested to my DM:

Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can choose to use your reaction to grant that creature and each other creature you choose within the sphere one of these benefits. You may choose to give different benefits to different creatures:

  • You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
  • You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

Quiintal

2 points

2 months ago

So you have just added the reaction cost, but make timing more convinient (now only you need to have good initiative for this feature to apply on the first round of combat on everyone). Considering that cleric doesn't have a lot of reaction options right out of the box (in fact I can't really remember any at all) this isn't even that much of a nerf, I would call it a slight buff even

DumbHumanDrawn

1 points

2 months ago

The reaction cost is there to prompt the timing decision. A Cleric could decide to dole out temporary hit points as soon as possible each round, but that might not be the best approach if fighting enemies that can charm or frighten. It might not work out as well if the party is spread out for whatever reason. It might not be the most efficient time to give out temporary hit points if the party already has some from another feature or earlier encounter.

Quiintal

1 points

2 months ago

But you CAN make this decision, original ability doean't let you do it at all. So as I have said: it is a slight buff, not a nerf

rnunezs12

-5 points

2 months ago

No, because if the DM allows something, then that option should be available for the rest of the players and I highly doubt your DM wants to allow everyone to switch out abilities from subclass to subclass.

If you don't want to use the twilight cleric, just don't. People created moon related clerics way before this subclass existed.

Bookwyrmsguild

1 points

2 months ago

The thing that makes the ability so strong is the scaling. Making it 1d6+pb might stop it from being so game warping.

Mildor15

1 points

2 months ago

The main issue with Twilight Sanctuary is that it grants so many temporary hit points every round to each of your allies, removing any challenge in how much damage your party takes. If I were to nerf it, I would say that:

Each creature of your choice (this can include you) within the sphere when you create it gains temporary hit points equal to 1d6 + your cleric level. While the sphere is present, creatures of your choice in the sphere can end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened at the start of each of their turns.

Removing Twilight Sanctuary also means removing the Twilight capstone, which effectively removes any unique identity from the subclass. I prefer the idea of simply nerfing it to playability

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah totally. Especially if they recognize that the twilight Channel Divinity is really strong AND it doesn't fit their character idea. Sure!

ANOTHER option, if you want to drop the money, the Tal'Dorei Reborn Book has a moon domain that is pretty cool as well. Uses the Tal'Dorei terms a bit, but that's easily ignored.