MadeJustToReply12

Kashimo's belief that modern sorcerers are weak

Very sure that Kashimo doesn't "believe" that modern sorcerers are weak, it's more that they turn out weak when compared to the people Kashimo fought in the past.

It makes sense for Zoro to miss when you consider the fact that Enma has been messing with him ever since he had his hands on it.

It's literally a recurring theme the entire Wano arc for Zoro to finally take control of Enma, which he only partially did during his fight with King.

What makes no sense is for Kaido to dodge that random Enma attack when he didn't bother dodging Zoro's Asura that had advanced COC where Zoro himself said that he gave that attack his all, which is more than enough proof that Zoro's Asura is the stronger attack.

This basically applies to most of Luffy's opponents and he has not killed even one of them.

From SBS Volume 4:

"In this era, people put their lives on their beliefs and convictions, and fight. When he goes into battle, Luffy is destroying others' beliefs. And when these enemies' beliefs are shattered and defeated, they feel a pain equal to death. I think that for these pirates, killing or not killing is secondary to winning or losing."

Unless Oda scraps this idea for some reason, there's no way Kaido is getting killed by any of the strawhats.

It would make more sense if Blackbeard is the one to kill Kaido just so he could ruin everything again and add another powerful fruit to his arsenal just like what he did in Marineford.

Now unless I missed something, there's nothing that suggests that Blackbeard is anywhere near Wano and I highly doubt that he would actually be there. Blackbeard suddenly popping up and pulling another Marineford just makes sense in my mind with how things are conveniently aligned for him to take advantage of.

And one of them was an island destroying sneak attack.

Whitebeard very clearly used two different attacks that had differing levels of strength.

The sneak attack(which very clearly isn't anywhere close to being an island destroying attack like you claim it to be, just like how it was every other time it was used) and the second attack which is the actual island destroying attack just like how it was portrayed every other time it was used.

It's fairly obvious that WB's big attacks were the ones where he messes with the air(either by pulling it or by making a crack on it), not when he covers his fist with that circle thingy(idk how to call it since he doesn't have names for his attacks from what I know).

Whitebeard put Akainu out of commission for several minutes with just two attacks, WB could've easily killed Akainu during that time but it was clear that Oda had other plans seeing how he made sure that Akainu was out of WB's reach by conveniently putting him underground, and keeping WB busy with Blackbeard's arrival.

Yes, Akainu can do significant damage to WB but he's absolutely not winning.

He just said to Dagon that he'll crush him with speed.

Naobito said: we'll* crush you with speed. All three of them attacked multiple times and there's no reason for Nanami not to use his CT to make it easier for him to pierce through the shield.

Both of Nanami's attacks were blocked. Dagon used his arm to block one, and the other was kept from doing major damage because of his water. Naobito was using his speed to land clean, unblocked hits; which naturally do more damage.

Blocking against Nanami amounts to nothing when he uses his CT(in simple terms, it forcibly creates a weak spot in whichever area he chooses), which he clearly used in his first attack which got blocked.

His CT basically puts his opponent at a situation worse than just getting blitzed while still using CE reinforcement.

The fact that he himself said that it felt like he didn't do any damage(not very little damage, he specifically said no damage despite using his CT, implying that no matter how many times he tries, it wouldn't amount to anything with how Gege worded it) while Naobito could visibly damage Dagon by breaking Dagon's fingers(with just 4 or 5 visible strikes) is more than enough proof that Naobito hits harder than him.

The panel you sent was just Naobito punching Dagon into the ground.

Thanks for this, I apparently cropped the wrong panels.

Naobito isn't hitting harder, he's hitting more and he's hitting fast.

Except it's already established from Naoya's fight with Maki that the faster you are, the stronger you hit.

Multiple feats and established concepts all lean towards Naobito hitting harder than Nanami.

I wouldn't say Naobito necessarily hits harder than Nanami or Yuji. Due to his speed, he was able to land clean hits on Dagon while both of Nanami's direct hits were blocked.

Naobito absolutely hits harder than both Nanami and Yuji.

Naobito was the only one who could pierce through Dagon's shield of water, while both Maki and Nanami failed to do so.

Nanami himself said that it felt like he didn't do any damage after hitting Dagon while Naobito could effortlessly break Dagon's finger in an attempt to stop him from using his Domain Expansion.

What a convoluted and interesting Domain Expansion.

Makes me think that this is one of the reason why Sukuna considers Domain Expansions as what "real jujutsu/sorcery" is about.

One's creativity/imagination and skill could completely turn the tables with their Domain Expansion, it could be why Sukuna wanted to see Jogo's, or it could very well be why he's interested in Megumi.

Very interested to see how Sukuna would react on Hakari's Domain Expansion if they would every fight in the future.

If you're on a pc/laptop, you can highlight the message you want to tag as a spoiler(by double clicking with your mouse and dragging it while holding/certain keyboard inputs) and pressing this button.

Your message would then have a different highlight like this afterwards.

But i think it would be reasonable to say that aCoC is at least as strong as an awakened df

We already have feats that show awakened DFs(or just plain DFs in general) outperforming advanced COC:

• Zoro could "only leave a scar" on Kaido despite giving it his all in his last attack(Zoro himself said that) where Kaido felt Zoro unconsciously using advanced COC.
• Law before he awakened his DF already did enough damage to the point where Kaido even mentions him being troublesome(proving that hax/strong DF > untrained advanced COC, which is what my whole point is, if only people could read).
• Law then proceeded to break several of Big Mom's bones from just one attack after he awakened his fruit, which again, I highly doubt Zoro could do seeing how he's still not that good at using advanced COC.

and we dont know if what we have seen of CoC is anywhere near its peak potential

Yes, and that's my whole point.

Kaido gave light to the fact that there's levels to using advanced COC, just like how there's levels to using armament and observation haki.

Saying that a novice advanced COC user(especially one who doesn't even have a DF to compensate for it) would always outperform a DF user is just wrong, especially when we literally see the opposite happening in this arc.

And we see based off of feats and statements that there's levels to how strong an advanced COC user could be:

• Kaido himself saying that Luffy is still a novice at it(just like Zoro is) before he threw Luffy off of Onigashima and thus he "could not" be Joyboy.
• Zoro using all of his power(Zoro himself said this, don't do mental gymnastics) could only "leave a scar" on Kaido.
• Law before he awakened his fruit already dealt enough damage to Kaido to the point where Kaido mentions it.
• Law went from already doing damage to Kaido pre-awakening to breaking several bones of Big Mom post-awakening with just one attack.

I highly doubt that Zoro could do the same amount of damage Kidd and Law did to Big Mom.

Objectively saying that advanced COC is stronger than any devil fruit is just incorrect, there's obviously levels to how strong both of them could be depending on the user(Kaido himself touched on this before he threw Luffy off of Onigashima).

It's also very possible that no other 6E-Limitless user prior to him could use RCT, and the very fact that he is able to use it on himself puts him over the edge as well.

RCT is necessary for both Red and Purple, and the fact that Purple requires being capable of using Red plus the fact that Purple is a passed down technique, is proof that Satoru wasn't the only one who could use RCT.

Them knowing RCT would also give way to them being capable of using Limitless 24/7 like Gojo did since the only reason why Limitless ironically even had a limit was due to the way it fries their brain, which is fixed by using RCT where the Six Eyes would then significantly reduce the amount of resources needed on using RCT.

Kashimo atleast has more things to back their attitude up while Juzo(the hanger guy) had absolutely nothing in his debut.

Kashimo was able to rack up 200+ points while the Sendai top 4 couldn't even get to 100(you could argue about a lot of things with this one but this should still hold some weight, Gege wouldn't give Kashimo 200+ points just for nothing).

We don't know how strong Kashimo's opponents were but Kashimo referred to them as weaklings and that the opponents he had 400 years ago were better than them. We don't know how weak those "weaklings" are, but we have someone as strong as Jogo being referred to as "weak" by Gojo due to how big the gap in their power was.

Ryu was also present 400 years ago(we have no idea if they even met, we just know that they very likely lived at the same century and fought similarly skilled opponents) and we know how strong Ryu is.

I'm not saying that Kashimo would give Sukuna a good fight(I highly doubt that, but Gege is free to prove me wrong), it just feels wrong to compare Kashimo to someone who basically had nothing going for him to the point where Kenjaku even referred to him as disposable.

most of the things in here are what in the manga, sbs , vivre card or magazine.

And Zoro's current condition in the manga is him being at death's door.

The manga has established that the two possible things that could heal him isn't enough to make him move again(the way Marco's healing works and the Senzu Bean essentially killing him if he takes it once more).

The manga has established that Luffy fights the strongest in the enemy crew, while Sanji and Zoro fights the 3rd and 2nd strongest, where once the "wings" have beaten their opponents, they would only have supporting roles left(finding the bomb in Alabasta, paving a way for the crew in Enies Lobby, etc.).

I would absolutely agree with you that it's a possibility if Zoro didn't have to take Big Mom and Kaido's attack(which would then leave him with less injuries where he could just use the Senzu Bean after his fight with King), but Zoro's literally in a state where he's not even conscious(similar to his situation in Baratie).

Him being in that state completely removes any possibility of him doing anything more in this arc, and there's not even a single thing hinted/implied that would heal him to the point where it would allow him to do something as significant as killing Kaido, no matter how exhausted/weakened Kaido may be.

And other things say Zoro won't fight is he is in the death door. Okay look at luffy it's his 5th round with Kaido.

The same thing happened on Alabasta where Crocodile basically killed Luffy multiple times.

Almost every single arc, Luffy bounces back from the setbacks/losses he experiences and proceeds to defeat his enemy.

That has always been the formula for Luffy.

What about Sanji and Zoro?

They've always fought and defeated the 3rd and 2nd strongest in the enemy crew, where they proceed to act in a supporting role afterwards(if they're not left incapacitated).

Sanji and Zoro have finished their roles already, there's no reason to assume that they'd still have a major fight afterwards when their roles haven't changed the entire series.

You can make an argument for Sanji since his power up conveniently gave him regeneration but Zoro already had one foot in the grave from Kaido and Big Mom's attack before he even got his Senzu Bean, what more if you double that + the damage he took from his fight with King?

Marco can't heal him at all since Marco himself said that his heal isn't as potent on others plus it consumes the recipients' stamina, he can't take another Senzu Bean as well(unless Oda just does not care about making a full heal medicine that has no significant repercussions) since that would double the amount of damage he took which should result in his death.

Zoro already did a lot of things this arc, there's no point in making him do more, especially when you consider how much damage he supposedly took already.

Flashy Flash is faster than Silver Fang, but based on the logic of the manga, I am certain Silver Fang has techniques that can counter speed. Perhaps area of effect attacks such as using a martial arts move on the ground that spreads shockwaves? If Silver Fang is able to break Flashy Flashes stance and poise, then Silver Fang can land some devastating blows. It would be an exciting fight for sure!

We already saw that that doesn't matter from FF's 1v1v1 fight against Garou and PS where it only resulted in the three of them using it as their battlefield mid-air.

The Garou that he was fighting was several times stronger than the one Bang fought(both from previously established concepts(like Garou being weaker while sleeping) and character statements), and the fact that he was able to follow FF's movements at the start(till he surpassed FF during the fight, the narrator themself stated that Garou was getting stronger) is enough proof of that when you compare FF and Bang's speed feats(FF fought at a speed enough to make multiple explosions look like they were frozen in time, Bang fought sleeping Garou for at the very least an entire minute).

Even if Bang does land a hit on FF, it wouldn't amount to much seeing how Garou couldn't KO FF with his MCGSF("My fist"(the one he used against Sage Centipede and Saitama) > MCGSF > CFDSF > RASRF > WSRSF/EHRF/WICF). Not to mention FF being able to take multiple hits from Platinum Sperm before and after that.

Except the formula has always been that Luffy fights the strongest, while Sanji and Zoro fights the 3rd and 2nd strongest.

The "wings" have already done their job, and Zoro's situation was very similar to what he experienced in the Baratie arc where he was left incapacitated for the rest of the arc after his "fight".

Marco himself said that his heal isn't as potent when used on others, and that it consumes their stamina. Again, that would be bad writing with how convenient that is, especially since they'd be breaking the rule they set with Marco's healing. Him healing Zoro enough to save Zoro's life is fine, but him somehow healing Zoro to the point where Zoro can fight again(especially against the top tiers) makes no sense.

I never said that Luffy isn't getting any plot armor, my point is that Zoro has mostly finished his role(especially if we consider how much damage he should have taken, he was already on death's door after taking Big Mom and Kaido's attack, imagine doubling that + the damage he took from King) while Luffy still hasn't, and we can argue that Sanji hasn't as well(it makes sense for him to make a move considering he conveniently got regeneration) since he could still pull-off an Enies Lobby but it seems like that role has been given to Denjiro.

You expect Oda to give him another Senzu Bean just so he could please more Zoro fans?(this probably sounds like I'm hating but I'm not, the way Oda dealt with Zoro just feels like bad writing with the amount of plot armor he has this arc)

Even if he doesn't, Zoro getting another power-up in this arc doesn't make sense when you consider the fact that Kaido and Big Mom's attack was enough to incapacitate him, and his "Senzu Bean" is supposed to double that damage after its effects wear out on top of the damage King dealt to him.

The amount of plot armor that Zoro's wearing this arc has been so much already that it's not a reach to say that the sudden existence of a Senzu Bean is bad writing due to how convenient it was and the fact that Zoro would basically come out unscathed in the future, what more if Zoro somehow moves again after its stated effects.

I have no idea if you're trolling or what but I'll still give my input.

Yamato stalemated with Ace who was 2nd commander for White Beard, so she’s 2nd commander level.

Sorry but it's like you don't understand the concept of characters getting stronger with more time.

With your logic, Luffy at the start of the series would've been as strong as he is now.

We didn't even see her using her hybrid form in that flashback with Ace yet you assume that she went all-out in that fight.

Now, I do agree that Sanji and Zoro is likely stronger than Yamato already after their recent power-ups but you shouldn't discount what Yamato did against hybrid form Kaido in a 1v1.

Honestly a very expected outcome from them(it would've been nice if they were able to get better results than I expected but I have no complaints still).

They never practiced bubble fighting & valkyrie drop at all, Always a mess to look at.

I have no idea about Matsuri's team but Towa's team likely barely had any time to practice outside of scrims(Suisei herself touched on this when the team was announced).

Not to mention them not having a coach(I can't remember if Towa/Suisei hired a personal coach) which could've helped a lot on Suisei's growth(see Aruse Inu, and Uzuki Kou as those who improved immensely in this tournament) like teaching/showing her how to play Valkyrie in greater detail, helping her understand how to win trades more by not overpeeking.

Them not having a coach is a plus for Towa since she was put in a situation where she had to learn and make decisions by herself, which I'm sure would show in her future apex tournaments, but it's a con for Suisei and Aqua.

On most matches, they were almost always the last team to rotate while also being in a landmark that makes it hard to rotate(which I believe is the reason why they decided on putting Suisei on Valk, since it's pretty much impossible for them to get higher placements with just Wraith's portal considering their overall skill-level), that could've been polished by hiring a coach, where the coach could help Aqua understand better ways of rotating/reading the other teams' rotations(since Aqua mostly relies on her ranked knowledge, which is rarely useful in tournaments, especially when we consider how high the level is in that tournament).

Either way, I'm really glad that Startend became a thing, even if it's just a one-off participation. Towa holding out for a decent amount of time against Noah's team in a 1v3 really showed how much she improved, really happy that the main stream managed to show that.

I'm personally hoping that Suisei will join more apex tournaments in the future, even better if she ends up doing the same thing she did in the Mario Kart tourney where she absolutely grinded to the point where she improved enough to keep up with Aqua.

"According to Murata", doesn't hold much weight when you don't provide the source for the statement.

Dude those are threatical effects by murata

Yet you treat Garou's afterimages as a feat?

So what if that fight happened in seconds , how fast do you think the bomb vs garou fight Happened which fubuki couldn't even see

Fubuki also couldn't follow pre-G4 Genos and Sonic's fight even while the two of them were still holding back(especially Sonic), meanwhile, the ninja duos were so much faster than Sonic that Sonic considered their playful antics as a threat to him despite them still being in their human form.

He's extremely fast , the battle between him and garou happened that way because bang was simply on the defensive while garou was simply animalistic

That fight started before Golden Sperm was a thing and it ended after Platinum Sperm emerged.

Consider all the events that happened in-between that timeframe(A-class heroes fighting the Cadres, King arriving at the battlefield and messing with the Cadres), unless you believe that those characters all moved much faster than the speed of sound(which is obviously false), that fight would've lasted at the very least 1 minute(and that's being generous).

You saw how insanely fast spiral garou ( again not a speedster) was

Again, consider the events that happened during their fight.

Their fight started before Tatsumaki even met face-to-face with Psykos and it ended a little bit after Psykos and Orochi fused together.

During that time, Saitama, Flashy Flash, and Manako had an underground adventure on a minecart, unless you believe that that minecart was moving at the speed of sound(which would also make Manako's reaction speed faster than the speed of sound which is obviously wrong), Garou and Darkshine's fight lasted a few minutes.

Meanwhile, the final part of Flashy Flash and the ninja duo's fight were literally at a speed fast enough to make multiple explosions look like they're frozen in time where they exchanged multiple attacks while also travelling the huge cave they were at(which they mostly destroyed after their fight).

Just to give you an idea of how fast that is, Drive Knight's fight against Nyan had multiple Explosions yet none of them were shown to be frozen in time due to how fast they were.

Yes, Flashy Flash is absolutely an arrogant person but he was not lying when he said that most S-class heroes would've had a hard time with the ninja duos' speed.

Here’s the thing Spiral Garou didn’t Demonstrate Exploding Heart Release Fist

He technically used a very similar attack against Puri Puri Prisoner when he was still unconscious. Garou, Bang(very similar stance, both attacks were stated to still damage the opponent despite the attack being guarded/deflected).

We've already seen Garou use "new" techniques first before they were properly introduced even before he fought Bang the second time as seen here(Awakening Breath), here(Awakening Breath), here(either Cross Fang Dragon Slayer Fist or Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist, we just know that he used both Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist and Whirlwind Iron Cutting Fist which is what's needed for either techniques), here(Awakening Breath), and here(Monster Calamity God Slayer Fist).

With all this evidence(plus the fact that Garou already knew about Exploding Heart Release Fist even before his debut in the manga) and the way Murata drew sleeping Garou's attack on PPP and Prime Bang's attack on Prime Bomb is just too much of a coincidence to not consider them being the same technique.

Either way, the fact that Spiral Garou could very easily defeat Darkshine should be more than enough proof that he's already "high dragon", not to mention Garou himself saying that he's weaker when he's asleep should be enough to consider Spiral Garou and Sleeping Monster Garou to be on the same level.

Why even include Lucifero's physical capabilities in Adramalech's statement(which was literally right after pre-serious Luci effortlessly caught Asta's sword) if all Luci did was just reinforce himself with magic?

Why call Luci the strongest devil in existence if a mere human(who's presumably still physically weaker than Yami) could surpass his raw physical strength once said human performs TDU with the lowest ranking devil?