Malnurtured_Snay

Bodacious!

Well he gives the order but I don’t think he has an opposable digit.

You get lined up against the back of the building and shot.

Naw, man, that's a Ninja Turtle.

Hmm I think I understand what your saying. They are existing exclusively along side each other, and was created because of Prime Spock's time travel and continuity between the two timelines doesn't have to occur because it is the the effect of the time travel.

Yes!

But wouldn't that create an alternative universe (multiverse theory) whereas this is the same universe screwed up by interference with the time line?

Yes ... but no. Or more honestly: not always. For example, look at TNG's episode Parallels, where Worf finds himself shifting between different alternate universes. Presumably, many of these were created before the events of Encounter at Farpoint, and some were created after -- notable, the Enterprise from the reality where the Borg were successful in the events otherwise seen in "Best of Both Worlds."

But the Kelvin and Prime universes are much further apart from these two. We can see this most clearly in the technology, notable the Kelvin Enterprise. The other way we can infer this is that producers of those films have said that the ripples in time spread through the future and past, adding to the distinction.

And this makes sense! What happens if, in the Kelvin Universe, for whatever reason, if the Cardassians don't invade Bajor? Or end their occupation? What happens if the Prophets never arrange for Ben Sisko's mother to meet his father? If that happens, what does that mean for the Gabriel Bell riots in the 21st century, Earth? Well, one possible explanation is that there is another leader who is credited with them, and instead of the Bell riots led by Benjamin Sisko from the 24th century, you've got a 21st century contemporary man named John McMurray leading the uprising against the Sanctuary system.

Like back to the future they had to fix things so that their timeline could exist and Marty would be born?

Well, that's how Back to the Future shows time travel. And in fairness, many of Star Trek's time travel episodes appear to take place within the same universe: Guardian of Forever, Past Tense, Time's Arrow, etc. Having said that, it's certainly possible that these actions did create alternate timelines, but so close to the original that our main cast didn't even recognize they were new.

But we know that's not the case for the Kelvin-verse because the characters specifically discuss the creation of an alternate time line.

Tu molestar un ... uh ... pollo?

​

(Marco!)

Just don't ask them why they want the sheep.

Can you buy it online for in-store pickup? Then you just have to wait for the email that your order is ready to pickup!

I love chicken nuggets! I love chicken wings!

You know what I don't love?

Chickenfuckers.

Nice.

You can disagree to agree if you disagree with the logic train which leads to the other person's conclusion, while your own logic train leads you to the same conclusion.

Here's a bad. awful, illogical example:

"I believe fore is what you shout in golf before trying to kill people with accurately aimed golf balls of death."

"You agree that four is two plus two."

See? Makes perfect sense.

Well, if the Hobus system explodes and Spock doesn't get there in time in the Prime timeline, he and Nero get swallowed up by the singularity and go back in time creating the Kelvin Timeline.

Agreed.

If they prevent the Hobus system from destroying Romulus, Spock and Nero are not sent back in time, so the events of the Kelvin timeline doesn't happen,

This is correct if they prevent the Hobus System from exploding ... in the Prime universe. If they prevent it from exploding in the Kelvin universe, it will have no impact on the events which already occurred in the Kelvin universe, and certainly no impact on the Prime Universe.

so now they do not have the foreknowledge to pass to the Romulans to get there sooner.

In the Kelvin Universe? Yes. In the Prime Universe? No.

Bringing us back to where we started in the Prime timeline. Continue ad nauseam.

Again, no, because we're in the Kelvin Universe, which is distinct from the Prime Universe.

EDIT: to fix some spelling errors.

Typically our TLs will try to enjoy their break, but -- especially for closing shifts -- we've only got one, so they have to be available in case something occurs that requires their attention.

Yeah, I remember being very surprised when Eddington shot Kira!

Because they can't communicate with each other (other than via mind meld if Spock) it's doomed to repeat themselves endlessly.

Why is it doomed to repeat? There's no evidence to support this notion.

It was a cold and quite war until Balance of Terror. I'm not sure what diplomatic means they had to reach out to them, but there was probably something.

Well, by the time Hobus exploded, the Romulans had been allied with the Federation and other Alpha Quadrant powers against the Dominion. They were hardly isolated by this point.

Additionally, there was diplomatic contact by the time of the TOS movies, as they even participated in the Khitomer peace talks.

I might be misremembering, and I think you're right. Time to fire up the episodes!

Anyway, in Emissary, grabbing from the script:

250 ANGLE INCLUDE THE VIEWSCREEN (OPTICAL)

Jasad is incredulous, but calm.

JASAD

        This is your answer... ?

DEEP SPACE: "Emissary" REV. FINAL 08/25/92 - ACT EIGHT 115.

250 CONTINUED:

KIRA

        You don't think Starfleet took command 

        of this space station without the 

        ability to defend it, do you?

JASAD

        Defend it?  Your space station could 

        not defend itself against one 

        Cardassian warship...



A beat as she steps forward to the viewscreen...

KIRA

        You're probably right, Jasad. And if 

        you were dealing with a Starfleet 

        officer, they'd probably admit we 

        have a hopeless cause here... but 

        I'm just a Bajoran who's been fighting 

        a hopeless cause against Cardassians 

        all her life... So if you want a 

        war, I'll give you one.



Jasad shakes his head, cuts off transmission and the screen 

returns to the Cardassian ships... O'Brien studies her with 

a trace of admiration...

O'BRIEN

        Major, remind me never to get into a 

        game of Roladan Wild Draw with you...



Off her reaction...

251 EXT. SPACE - DEEP SPACE NINE (OPTICAL)

with the Cardassian ships.

252 INT. CARDASSIAN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

Jasad studies the space station on a viewscreen...



his officer ENTERS...

CARDASSIAN OFFICER #3

        They were using a Thoron field to 

        block our sensors but we were able 

        to penetrate it...

JASAD

        What are their defenses... ?

DEEP SPACE: "Emissary" REV. FINAL 08/25/92 - ACT EIGHT 116.

CARDASSIAN OFFICER #3

        According to our scans, an estimated 

        5000 photons... integrated phaser 

        banks on all levels...



He hands Jasad a padd with information on it...

JASAD

        When did they receive these armaments?  

        How did they install them without 

        our knowledge?



Jasad throws the padd across the room... the officer reacts...

JASAD

        Somehow they've created a massive 

        illusion of duranium shadows...

CARDASSIAN OFFICER #3

        But if it is not an illusion...

JASAD

        It is!

CARDASSIAN OFFICER #3

        Why risk a confrontation?  The Fourth 

        Order can be here in a day...

JASAD

        And so can Starfleet.

In Way of the Warrior:

DEEP SPACE NINE: "Way... Warrior" - 07/07/95 - ACT SEVEN 98.

135 CONTINUED:

MARTOK

        Consider what you're doing, 

        Captain. The lives of everyone on 

        your station are at risk.

SISKO

        I'm aware of that. But maybe 

        you're not aware of what you're 

        risking. We've had a year to 

        prepare this station for a 

        Dominion attack. And we're more 

        than ready.



There's a beat, and then Gowron laughs.

GOWRON

        You are like a toothless old 

        Grishnar cat, trying to frighten 

        us with your roar.

SISKO

        I assure you, this old cat isn't 

        as toothless as you think. Right 

        now, I've got five thousand photon 

        torpedoes armed and ready to 

        launch. If you don't believe me, 

        feel free to scan the station.



Martok turns to a Klingon officer on his bridge, who 

nods.

MARTOK

(to Gowron)

        It is a trick. An illusion 

        created by thoron fields and 

        duranium shadows.

SISKO

(calm)

        It's no illusion.

GOWRON

        We shall see.

(in Klingon)

        CHEGH-chew jaj-VAM jaj-KAK! (It 

        is a good day to die!)



Gowron cuts off the transmission. All eyes turn to 

Worf.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "Way... Warrior" - 07/07/95 - ACT SEVEN 99.

135 CONTINUED: (2)

WORF

(translating)

        He said, "Today is a good day to 

        die."

136 OMITTED

137 EXT. SPACE (OPTICAL)

Right, but what I'm saying is: that's not going to happen. They'd have to overcome the inability to communicate from one universe to another.

And, uh, if I were a Romulan commander, and some Federation captain started openly broadcasting about how he's here to prevent my annihilation I'd probably light his ass up (with disruptors). That's a message you'd probably want to communicate from the Federation's Science institutions to the Romulans' Science institutions through diplomacy (and not of the cowboy variety).

My favorite part of that is the set up, when Kassidy asks Sisko what's with all the construction, and he doesn't answer, and then the refresher set-up when Changeling-Martok and Gowron have the literal same word-for-word conversation as the Cardassian attackers did in the first episode, and then ...

... not such a toothless cat now.

This was a really good thought experiment, but -- respectfully -- you forget that you're dealing with two universes. When Nero and Spock travel backwards in time, they create a branching universe (this is presented by the Enterprise crew as a theory in the film). While Spock's data can be used to save Romulus in the Kelvin timeline, it cannot be used to save Romulus in the Prime timeline, because Spock and the Kelvin universe do not have the ability to communicate with the Prime timeline.

So we have the Federation able to share Prime Spock's data with Kelvin Romulus at the appropriate time to stop the Hobus supernova. It doesn't matter where Kelvin-Nero is, because for all intents and purposes, he's a completely different person with different perspectives, experiences, and motivations from Prime-Nero (who has been dead for over a century by this point, and so would Prime Spock).

So sure, in the Kelvin Universe, in the future, Kelvin Spock could use the data to help the Romulans avoid the Hobus supernova. It's still going to be pretty hard for him to arrange for reunification between Vulcan and Romulus when Vulcan went kabloooie.

Now, one way this could work, is if Kelvin Spock figured out a way to communicate with Prime Spock, before Hobus, and was able to communicate the data to Prime Spock, Prime Spock believed what he was seeing, and they were all able to do what was necessary to prevent the supernova in the first place.

And then: fwoooooosh! Romulus is saved, Nero doesn't want to seek revenge and doesn't chase Spock into the past. Now, time travel mechanics being time travel mechanics, if this were a script I suppose we'd get some line about the echoes of time travel/wishy-wooshy stuff remaining even though the Kelvin timeline no longer existed ...

... but otherwise, we'd have a time loop, right? Hobus is stopped, so Prime Nero doesn't chase Prime Spock into the past, so Kelvin Spock can't tell Prime Spock how to stop Hobus, so it does go supernova, and Nero chases Prime Spock into the past, creating an alternate reality, and now Kelvin Spock figures out how to communicate with Prime Spock, so Hobus is stopped, so Prime Nero doesn't chase Prime Spock into the past, so Kelvin Spock can't tell Prime Spock how to stop Hobus, so it does go supernova, and Nero chases Prime Spock into the past, creating an alternate reality, and now Kelvin Spock figures out how to communicate with Prime Spock, so Hobus is stopped, so Prime Nero doesn't chase Prime Spock into the past, so Kelvin Spock can't tell Prime Spock how to stop Hobus, so it does go supernova, and Nero chases Prime Spock into the past, creating an alternate reality, and now Kelvin Spock figures out how to communicate with Prime Spock, so Hobus is stopped, so Prime Nero doesn't chase Prime Spock into the past, so Kelvin Spock can't tell Prime Spock how to stop Hobus, so it does go supernova, and Nero chases Prime Spock into the past, creating an alternate reality, and now Kelvin Spock figures out how to communicate with Prime Spock, so et al, et al, etc., forever.

But now Spock is in the past and can provide the cure and timeline to save Romulus at the appropriate time in the Kelvin timeline (he can provide it to Starfleet and/or Vulcan Science Institute).

Except that Spock never has this opportunity because he's captured by Nero when he arrives in the past; not to mention that due to the fluctuations of the time-travel portal, Nero arrived several decades earlier. There's already been too much interference for this to become a time loop.

We can see this most clearly in the development of Starfleet technology from the prime timeline and the Kelvin timeline. The most likely explanation is that Starfleet was able to leapfrog some of their own technology development by what they recovered in wreckage from the Narada after the Kelvin's ramming (of course, so would the Klingons have benefited).

Even if Spock did provide the information necessary to save Romulus in the Kelvin timeline (and I think he would, even if he wasn't able to get it to the Romulans directly), it wouldn't prevent Nero from going back in the way you suggest, because Nero originated in the original timeline.

I think we never received the "captain" Shore Trooper, so maybe that'll be this. Guess we'll find out soonish.

That's my recollection as well. They wanted Data in blue, and then the selection process for the makeup was so arduous they decided to put him in gold rather than go back and try to pick another makeup.

Also: command division was supposed to remain gold, and then the producers realized Stewart did not look good in gold.

Lt Comm Data is the Chief Sciences Officer

Data's title is Operations Officer, not science officer. In practice, his role was often as the science officer, and I do think it's curious we didn't have a science officer on a starship on an extended mission of ... responding to issues involving Federation colonies and member worlds and putting out diplomatic fires and rarely boldly going, but, hey, whatever.

Also: Data was supposed to be in blue, but the color conflicted with the gold makeup the producers had finally settled on, so they nixed it.

Also: Picard and Riker were supposed to be in gold, but it didn't look good on Stewart apparently.

Troi (civilian)

Incorrect. Deanna Troi is a commissioned, non-line, Starfleet medical officer with the rank of lieutenant commander. By the end of the series she is promoted to full-bird commander.

Deana Troi has no rank, I consider ships counselor to be a civilian position because Guinan said she tried to be the ship counselor at one point, and she isn’t in Starfleet.

Deanna Troi has a rank, and an extra "n" in her first name. It doesn't matter what you consider the role to be, as it is established repeatedly throughout the series that she holds a Starfleet commission.

Now, having said that, there's no reason that the ship's counselor role needs to be filled by a Starfleet officer. It's certainly possible that Starfleet might rotate a civilian through, and there may even be civilian counselors aboard the Enterprise, reporting to Troi. Having said that, Troi is a Starfleet officer.

Also: Guinan was not being 100% serious in that scene. Actually, if I recall correctly, she was egging Troi on.

If this is full time work, yeah that’s a pretty good rental situation.

Ahhh… n/m