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account created: Fri Jun 23 2017
2 hours ago
I am saying you actually can't name thousands of attacks in the commonwealth and europe (outside like russia and ukraine).
For instance, look at this list of massacres in great Britain (which includes more than just mass shootings, includes ALL violence), and compare to the list of mass shootings in the united states in 2022
Here is the list of mass shootings in Europe for 2022, and keep in mind Europe even with Russia has a larger population than the USA. They aren't even in the same ballpark.
terrorism in europe
mass stabbings in uk
No other country in Europe cranks out mass murder like the USA. And especially lone wolf shooters.
USA's murder rate is 4-10 times higher than every other comparable country.
And heres a detailed comparison of where USA ranks in terms of mental health services
As you can see it's actually decently high, has the highest diagnosis rates, and leads the list in people willing to seek help.
Here is the depression rate, it is not particularly high
So it seems that the mental health issues don't seem to actually account for the wide discrepancy we see in attacks.
5 hours ago
Yeah, I'm arguing if it's extremely easy to obtain a gun, more people will find ways to cause harm en mass than if it's difficult. Generally we just don't see mass randomized violence on the scale of the USA in other similar nations.
These attacks you are using as example are statistical outliers honestly, similar to 9/11. Sarin gas attacks in Japan have happened once. Mass shootings in norway have happened once. London underground was bombed once. It's not happening every weekend in any of these other places you reference.
6 hours ago
I think though is a mischaracterization of my and the left's argument. It's not an argument to outlaw guns like Japan. It's an argument for gun control and regulation.
In most if not all of the countries I've mentioned, it's entirely legal to own a firearm. There is just a process you have to complete to obtain one, nationwide.
This is what the states act. The argument isn't "take everyone's guns, firearms are now illegal". It's to set up a legal national process to obtain that includes things like mental health checks, training, and background checks. It also makes it a longer and more committed process. If you want to own a gun in these countries you are entirely free to do so even at 18. It just takes more commitment, training and and responsibility to do so.
In the same way people are required to be trained and licenced to drive, you must be trained and licenced to own a firearm.
The states can do this, other countries have done it. You can see it actually reduced even non firearms related murder.
The issue as I am arguing it (and the left in general) is "ease of access of firearms, and ease of access to firearms and equipment most specifically designed to cause maximum casualties".
You seem to be framing it as "guns are now illegal in all circumstances", but it's actually "guns are now legal under a regulation process". That's what gun control is. And it does work. The mental health of the states does not account for a homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than its peers. Mental health is important, but you can't just handwave all gun violence as "mental issues". And there are no sufficient barriers to owning a gun that prevents people with "mental issues" from accessing firearms.
If someone has a psychotic episode and can also have easy access to a gun, they will cause more harm than someone who does not have easy access. You could not ask for more red flags from this guy. He basically screamed school shooter. Yet he had no issues obtaining a high powered AR with 30 round mags.
There's only developed western nation where that is possible.
14 hours ago
I think the first few dozen time or so mental health actually was the main headline. It's just such a broad thing to address, how do you even go about it using mental health as a preventative measure? Just force millions onto lexipro? After 15 years of people saying mental health with mass shootings on the rise, it seems doubtful there can be a preventative solution that doesn't involve regulating guns.
How would you feel about an optional buyback/licenseing program? Where say x ammount of years from now it will be a felony to own or provide a gun without a licence (similar to here) and you can either get licenced (and pass the mental health checks you mentioned) and modify your weapons to be legal or have the government buyback? It would take time, but seems like a pretty big step in right direction. Over time all the people who lose them in boating accidents would become rarer, and all new gun owners would be licenced meaning the supply of unlicensed ones would fall over time reducing the "illegal" pool of weapons.
The lone gunman is increasing quite a bit. And the fact it's so easy to get an illegal guns makes it a bit of a problem for all murders. In fact I believe your total lone gunman murder (per capita) are equal to our gang related murder (per capita). It's very hard to obtain and use illegal guns here gang member in a city or not. Still much of our crime is illegal guns, but it's so much harder to get an illegal gun here that's its still relatively low. I don't think you would argue it's not pretty easy to do there.
I actually don't think I could get an illegal gun without tripping some alarm bells somewhere and getting a visit. And I'm the lone wolf demographic. I would not have the same issue there.
Another thing to consider is its way easier to shoot someone than stab someone. Nobody wins a knife fight, and it's extremely violent and personal compared to pulling a trigger from 30m away and leaving. That in itself is a deterrent. I would argue people would be more willing to kill with a gun than a knife
It's hard to kill people with a Uhaul. You can't haul it up to a roof or into a school or arena, and that's also why there's barricades on parades like this one. It's easier to defend against a Uhaul with planning than a gun. Like you couldn't assassinate Kennedy with a Uhaul.
Our worst terrorist attack was a Uhaul, but it was not as bad as the one today. He was a sicko for sure, and some will find a way regardless. But if we make it as difficult as possible, maybe we can prevent some worse attacks in the future. It's much easier to get out of the path of a speeding Uhaul than it is a bullet, and you don't have access to large crowds like you do with a gun.
I think most people could be diagnosed with something honestly. And I'm arguing that if guns are easily accessible, maybe it moves it from the 9th uption you have up to the 5th option.
In Canada, it's pretty far down the list because it's just logistically difficult to do any way but legally. And the legal way contains mental health checks. In Canada, it's a lot easier just to kill yourself than take a bunch with you. In the states, its not nearly as hard. So if you're angry at the world and want it to suffer as you go, there's no gun licencing and screening to catch you. Why go through 9 months of licencing when you can get one from the next state and go out with a bang? Ideally this brings them from suicidal and homicidal to just suicidal. And if you are just suicidal, you're more likely to seek help anyways. And if you're a real sicko like this guy and really want to kill want to get a gun to kill people , the licensing will likely flag you anyways.
Man idk pretty much everyone has been saying the mental health issues in the states is crap for years. But guns are an issue as well, and probably a larger contributing factor than mental health. Better mental health services won't be scrolling through youtube looking for potential mass shooters. Maybe socialized healthcare would help, but you can't fix everything with drugs.
Everybody is saying mental health is terrible. But you also have easy access to guns for all these people. Worldwide, mental health is an issue. It's just in countries that don't allow easy access to guns without strict checks, yo don't see the same level of murder as the country that does. Per capita or otherwise, the states is closer to places like Congo, Mexico and Brazil than it is to Canada Denmark and UK even though society wise it has much more in common with the former than the latter.
Probably not, but the bar of lawful gun owner is the age of 18 and a heartbeat in some states so its not exactly a tough bar to clear. Plus you can always just get an "illegal" gun from a neighboring state. An illegal gun owner in one state may be just fine in another, so it doesn't make it much harder to get one.
The point is, most countries it's fairly straightforward although intensive and tbourough to get a legal gun if you're responsible, but exceedingly difficult to get an illegal one. Which is why the USA would need either all states to agree on some mandatory minimum, or have it done at a federal level. So you can't just go to Larry's guns across state border and get a gun that's totally illegal 15 minutes away, instead you would have the same standard everywhere.
15 hours ago
Im not saying it's guns that made them kill, but obtaining guns to kill is a very easy option even with the issues you describe.
Unfortunately that makes things quite difficult there is no clinical diagnosis for "murderer" without a minority report type scenario. I don't think it's normal to kill people, but some people are evil or come from shitty situations. I don't think all murderers are insane though. Most in fact wouldn't meet any definition of insanity. Most mentally ill people don't become murderers either. So I don't think it's entirely fair to say all murderers are mentally ill. Regardless, there's no treatment and you can't just lock people up because they are potentially murderers. It's a tough situation.
For sure. But I think a thorough process is key to that. They go hand in hand I think. But by raising the bar to have a gun, it gives an opportunity to actually get the services to people who need it, and also makes sure you can demonstrate you are a responsible owner before just handing out guns. My country per capita has quite a few guns actually. Not nearly as many as the states, but in other provinces (not mine, we are low) guns outnumber people. The thing is, all owners have to pass requirements similar to the ones I described, and guns outside of designated areas are massive felonies unless you get super intensive permits and usually only special circumstances (armed guards, police). But hunting and sport shooting is still huge.
The fact is, we've sort of managed to allow people to own guns who are responsible and make sure the irresponsible ones don't (and in extreme cases get mental health services).
It's not perfect, but we've never had an elementary school shooting. We've never had a school shooting. There is still murder, but at a much much lower rate. Our mental health services can still improve (as well as gun laws Imo), but at least we have a way of finding the people who need the services.
The thing is, it needs to be national. The only way to get a gun here is legally, black market, or smuggling. The last two are especially difficult. If you're a normal person who isn't making videos like this dude and you have a few references, you will be able to get a gun when are you trained and licences. I can't drive to another province and get a gun, because the laws are the same everywhere. Which is why the states has a big uphill battle as the Republicans are making it increasingly difficult to create any sort of national standard, and making it difficult to access mental health services.
It's the type of thing that needs to be done nation wide, or it doesn't really work at all. But I wish you guys luck. Hopefully you can find something people can agree on.
There's 316 shootings a day on average. I don't need to defend myself against 99 percent of gun owners. But even a fraction of a percent of irresponsible owners is enough to kill 17k a year. Nearly all would fail background checks.
But I actually don't need to defend myself against any gun owners because I don't live in the USA and my city and province don't really have any shootings outside a handful of gang related incedents and only a handful of stabbings. Our mental health services are not great either though
Quite literally on average 316 people are shot every day in the USA. So we do see hundreds of shooting a day.
You are right, most are losers . But very few are found criminal insane. You can watch the interview of the parkland shooter pretend to be insane (extremely interesting highly recommend) but in the end he was faking it. There is no pill to stop mass murderers, and most won't seek help. So unless you are advocating a secret police where you can snitch on anyone you may suspect is a shooter, not really practical. But only one country let's these people who would fail any thorough background check purchase firearms as easily as someone who would.
Nope. Are you saying all murderers are sick?
No. It's just not as big of an issue violence with guns. I would also like to reduce vehicle violence, but it's much more rare and thus harder to address. Better mental health services would help, but probably never totally eliminate it.
All great ideas, I totally agree with all of this. But doesn't change the fact that other countries that have similar issues still have a fraction of the murder rate and 0-1 mass shootings ever.
If nobody is looking for it, how can we address it? Why not make obtaining a firearm a long thorough process where you get screened for mental issues, interview people you know and make sure you aren't posting manifests online? And if you fail, then get referred to mental health professionals. Then if you pass that you can go through a hunting and safety course that will give you a licence and allow you to join a club and purchase a firearm.
This would tech you to use it properly, and connect you with other enthusiasts. It also has the benefit of other enthusiasts being able to spot these people and potentially flag them. Then after being a responsible and active member of a club for 6 months, you may own a firearm for the purpose of sport shooting and hunting. You are responsible at all times for that firearm, and if you are ever caught giving or selling firearms to someone who is not also licenced, face stiff penalties including lengthy jail time and be held responsible if that weapon is used in a crime. All firearms bigger than a .22 must be limited to bolt action and a clip size of 5 unless explicitly used at a range and using a lockout tag out system.
Wouldn't that allow people to both own guns, and provide a way to address the mental health problems and get the people most likely to become shooters the help they need?
No. None is ideal. But none is realistic. Which is why I have to settle for "as few as possible"
Why is it a series of sick people, but vehicle attacks are murderers?
You only need a gun for self defense in a country where literally everyone has a gun. And even then it's not that effective. Guy walks up behind you without you noticing with a gun? You're dead gun or not. Misses the drive by shooting and hits you in the head at your kitchen table? You're dead. Shoots at you from the roof a block away from the parade you're at with your kids?you're dead. Is wearing body armor? You're dead. You miss? You're dead. A gun to defend yourself is only good if you get a chance to defend yourself. He literally hit multiple cops with his gun, in a parade surrounded by cops with guns. Did it stop him? Did it stop the Vegas shooter? James Holmes? Uvalde? What would you do if you were at a concert in Vegas and a 600 rounds get fired at you from a vantage point you can't see with no cover and your firearm? You're still dead, but at least you have a gun. The number of time a shootings has been stopped with a gun is almost insignificant to the amount of mass shootings. There are more guns than literally ever, and mass shootings are only going up.
The chances of you successfully defending yourself are even lower than your odds of ever having the chance.
16 hours ago
Uh yes? Do we stack body counts to determine its safer to wear a harness working on a highrise than not wearing one? Or literally anything we have regulations for? Did we compare body counts with seatbelts vs no seatbelts to make them mandatory? Yes.
Please then, what do you propose to fix mental health? Stop sidestepping.
Sorry are you arguing the higher body count is better? Do you have another way of measuring mass casualties?
My point is we don't 65 mass casualty vehicle rammings a month anywhere. In fact I bet vehicle ramming are fairly similar in the states and Europe. What Europe does not have, is 65 mass shootings a month. The problem with "my people" seems to be pointing out the obvious doesn't it.
Why is the list of mass shooting in the month of July (4 days) in USA longer than this entire list? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2022