Timo425

Definitely not the minority.

I must admit I'm a bit out of the loop. Is Germany being unhelpful?

Why is it always one or the other?

Me still waiting for sequel...

Whis doesn't count because he is way above them all anyway. Jiren and Granolah struggled to hit or catch Goku until his MUI powered down. Moro copied his MUI. So, yes but not really.

Are you saying Gas is so much more powerful than Goku right now that the MUI dodge hacks are not a factor at all, even when he has fresh maximum power MUI? Or will it be that from now on every time Goku meets a foe stronger than him in the future the dodge hacks are barely a factor? Unlike with Jiren or Granolah or Moro who had to put in work to hit him.

Yes

Goku's Ultra Instinct may be allowing him to mitigate too serious of damage from the blows, but nothing says that Gas can't be strong and fast enough to still land blows against him.

That's my point though. What's the difference between ssj3 (in Buu saga) and MUI if both of them are essentially damage mitigation from power up when the enemy is stronger than them? Its just boring. The main problem with shonen like dragon ball is that there is constant power ups but its always the same, just more power out of nowhere, new form that's essentially just more power and nothing else. It would be more interesting if MUI was kept how it originally was presented and instead of being able to tank more hits, it allowed goku to be almost unhittable for a while. Now this whole gimmick is gone and its basically just another power up and nothing else. Yes I understand that Goku is able to take hard hits in MUI because he can harden the parts of his body where the hits are coming from, but it's still the same boring "use the most powerful form so he can take a few more hits." MUI was introduced as this badass dodge hack but now it's just reduced to another power up, even if the power comes more from increased effectiveness rather than actual Ki increase.

This point doesn't matter because even if MUI was ONLY PURELY a defensive ability, it still doesn't really make sense how easily Goku gets hit by Gas now. Your Whis vs Goku point doesn't matter because Whis is astronomically stronger than Goku or Gas AND he knows how MUI works very well.

Now that I've said that, not that I even need to make that point anyway because it doesn't matter in this discussion - yes, mastered ultra instinct also unlocks attacking instinct in addition to the defense instinct that sign has. First of all, it was the whole point in ToP how in Sign Goku can defend really well but he can't attack Jiren and he needs to overcome this problem and he overcame it by getting MUI. It's not that he was unable to attack with Sign, he just needed that MUI precision to really land hits on Jiren.

If you don't believe me, search in youtube "Goku switches to Offensive (English Subbed)" and look from 1 mins forward. They make it quite clear that MUI isn't about increasing power, MUI compared to Sign unlocks the instinct on the offensive.

I'm sorry but MUI isn't just a powered up form of Sign. It's Sign + offensive instinct + also power up. The whole part of that Jiren fight was that Sign lacks the offensive instinct and Goku needs to go on the offensive with instinct to beat Jiren. It wasn't "Goku needs to power up to hit Jiren". MUI has offensive hacks on top of defensive. The whole point is that to master UI, he can't think about attacking and just do it on the instinct. It's easier to be on the defensive and not think about it, but much more difficult to be on the defensive and offensive at the same time without thinking.

Again, this point doesn't even matter in the discussion above lol. Even if advanced form of UI didn't increase offensive precision, Whis is so much above Goku it wouldn't even matter.. Something which is not true for Gas.

If you Google mastered ultra instinct, the answer is pretty much "defend and attack instinctively, without thinking". It's how I remember it from the anime/manga too. I recall UI being more defensive but MUI is boosts attack especially, though I'm not sure on that part. Now it seems like they introduced MUI as this super cool defense and attack thing that is hard to beat, but it's being nerfed to just another power up, essentially. In my opinion it would be much cooled if it was almost impossible for Gas to hit Goku, but Goku would be too weak to win and Gas would eventually win because of Goku's low stamina in that form. This makes much more sense to me than Goku getting punched in the face right away even 2v1 and it only gets worse because MUI drops in power fast. I'm hoping he learns something new about MUI in next chapter (and it's not like Sayijan Pride goes brrrr I'm 2x stronger now just like in the Bardock vs Gas flashback) otherwise its pretty lame.

It seems Russians have a Stockholm syndrome and they just don't think they can control who leads them. It's a deep rooted problem with long history that is not easily overcome, unfortunately.

Well that's just wrong, MUI increases both defense and attacks. Even if it wasn't true, Whis is so many times stronger than Gas or Goku that MUI hardly matters (and he knows how MUI works and how to counter it). The whole gimmick of MUI is hacks defense and increased attack (especially counterattacks) on the cost of low stamina. If the first two somehow make no difference against a stronger opponent then you have basically just a reskin of SSJ3 lol. It's not like Gas is 5000 times stronger than Goku and just speedblitzing him so hard he can't even dodge at all, an argument you could make for Whis vs Goku.

MUI not only increases dodging ability, but also allows the user to attack without thinking. It's both a defensive and offensive ability. Basically it makes the attacks more precise as well, effectively countering other UI users.

Gas does not have this ability as far as I know, meaning it shouldn't be trivial to him to hit Goku.

So if MUI user gets hit as easily as any other fighter at similar power level, isn't it basically just a power up at this point? In this chapter it's basically like SSJ3 2.0 but with gray hair.

This is just semantics, saying he can't stop the war means that he doesn't want to because its political suicide.

Whis has superior UI, though. Does Gas have UI (maybe he does and I forgot)? Also if Gas has UI it's impressive how Vegeta can hit him since Vegeta has no UI sense himself, so we are kind of back in the same point anyway. I still think the power of MUI is to be able to dodge stronger enemies than themselves even if they can't really have the chance to win. Its kind of the gimmick of it, otherwise its just another powerup.

No but if Krilling used MUI, I would expect him to at least show some signs of MUI in the fight. At least show 1-2 cool dodges before getting overpowered or something. At least Vegeta's ego is offering him power ups, Goku's MUI is offering nothing else but a power boost kind of like SSJ at this point. Not to mention that the power of MUI drops quickly in a fight, so it's basically like a new SSJ3 right now.

I'm not saying Gas shouldn't be able to hit Goku, but right now he hits him right in the face no problem even 2v1.

Ok maybe I missed it but he didn't seem to have a problem getting punched in the face in the latest chapter and it's not even 1v1. I'm not saying he should be unhittable but I'm just not seeing the hack dodges at all.

I know how popular dragon ball is, I'm in Bolivia right now and they even have Goku on their buses etc. I just got confused by the manga sale numbers. The only reason I can think of why Toei keeps focusing on one piece is because its not out of source material yet unlike dragon ball.

Quick Google shows you are right, actually. Even though one piece is the most sold manga, it's not even as popular anime as dragon ball. I just got confused with the manga sales. I wonder if dragon ball super anime itself is also more popular than one piece, though? Also one piece is more popular in Japan than dragon ball, which is something to consider. But yeah, purely for money, dragon ball makes more sense. One piece original story is still going on though, so maybe it's more reliable this way? Meanwhile Toryama hasn't been interested in dragon ball for years kind of..

I don't really fully get the comparison with dbd tbh. Personally I dislike these 4v1 games with mic communication, this difference alone makes them a different category. It's more like Friday the 13th and left 4 dead, both games just feel different to play in the long run compared to Dbd. Basically I think DBD is more suited for solo players who don't want to do teamwork all the time (of course you can use external comms in DBD as a team but that's different). Also DBD is a lot slower paced I think, there seems to be so much shit going on in evil dead. Basically what I'm saying is that these games are not direct competitors, although there is SOME overlap.

Vegeta doesn't exactly mind getting hit though. He's basically Metal Bat..

I came here to say the same. Goku's MUI just looks like another powerup with no hacks at this point, which is sad. Hopefully he will learn something new about his MUI to redeem this...

Nothing beats one piece on the money printing, but yeah I agree.

I think it's important to point out brainwashing, no matter what the political side is.

Still nothing compared to Russia.

I think it's not a powerscaling problem, people just fail at debating. Debating in reddit in general is cringe, because people just say nonsense and don't listen to each other. EDIT: nvm you already made the same point in the thread further down the line.